Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 29

There are hotheads in every country. No shortage of agitators, but far looking problem solvers in short supplies.

*sigh*

I don't care about Medvedev or Nawrocki. I think it had to be done. It isn't a matter of politics, but principles. A clear signal had to be sent to Ukrainians. Because it's not "only some regions in Ukraine are like this," "only some street names." It looks like the UPA/Bandera cult is an official Ukrainian policy. Poles can't accept this.


It has for me. And for majority of Poles.


No idea, but it should be taken away too. Such order shouldn't be given away like candies... 🤦


And you don't think that Zelensky and his people are sabotaging a golden opportunity for Ukraine to get a strong ally - Poland? 🤔🤨

You guys seem to not understand what has happened... Nawrocki taking away that order from Zelensky is just a symbol of what is happening - relations between two nations crumbling before our eyes... It looks like Zelensky took off rose-tinted glasses from quite a few of Polish noses (mine included)... PiS didn't do it. Nawrocki didn't do it. Kremlin propaganda didn't do it. Zelensky did. That's the reality and no smooth talking from Zelensky will change it now...

My observation of RuSSia, our own Polish political scene, etc. led me to a following conclusion:

Show me your heroes are and I will know who you are.

No doubt for his support for the EU enlargement in 2004.


Of course. This was completely unnecessary on Zelensky's part as well.

But I think that it is fair to say that even beyond the Bandera dispute, PiS politicians have done and said a lot of things that have weakened the deep gratitude many Ukrainians had Poland thanks to the support given during the early days of the war.

No Torq, the is where you are mistaken, I acknowledge your grievances. You are factually correct even about the genocide but you not solving anything
, you not correcting the past, you are aggravating the healing scab. Someone must extend the friendly hand, that's what Poland is doing at the moment
other way we will be condemned to follow example of the Middle East. I admire your passion, but if we act on emotion leads to disaster for Poland.
Not learning from former mistakes are not expectable.

No.

It's all about looking to the future. Wounds of the past are what they are and Ukraine currently being illegally invaded by the worst country in the world isn't the time for this.

Meanwhile russia, unable to lure suckers to get killed for a cash pay out, has started grabbing men off the street, taking them to 'torture camps' where they are forced to sign military contracts...

x.com/JayinKyiv/status/2067922738589606339

x.com/ChurchillFella/status/2068373563527344475

Leonid Kuczma (second president of independent Ukraine) has renounced his Order of the White Eagle.

x.com/MotronaCherkas/status/2068376238637420712

Budanov (a major hero in the current war) has renounced the Gold Officer's Cross of the Order of Merit of Poland

x.com/Kyrylo_Budanov/status/2068200652551938401

" Ukraine does not dictate to any other people how to teach its history. Therefore, we too reserve the fair right to our own national memory and dignity"

I think Poland is not going to come out well in the international arena....

Спасибо, товарищ Навроцкий!

And Viktor Yushchenko too.

Maybe I'll buy this order for me at the flea market. 🤔

They're giving back their orders? Well, if they said A, maybe it's time to say B and return all the weapons, ammo, money, Starlinks etc.?

General Komornicki argues that Ukraine knew exactly what reaction to expect from Poland and that is precisely why they decided to start this mess - to show Poland as an irresponsible and quarrelsome state - it was a deliberate provocation for which we were bound to fall. Ukraine, seeing the weakness of Russia decided to take over Poland's role as the regional leader and this whole UPA affair is just one step towards this goal. I must say this is rather plausible.

If that proves to be true, then Poland will have to respond to that.

One way or another - Zelenskyy's order should have been returned through the ambassador (there is such a thing as diplomatic protocol), not sent by post. This is an open insult and also requires proper answer.


It wasn't only Nawrocki - all Polish political parties, from left to right, condemned the naming of the Ukrainian unit "Heroes of UPA".

Which is where it should have stopped..

Perhaps, but the President had the right to revoke the Order (he had a rather good reason for it too). Zelenskyy, on the other hand, decided to escalate by openly insulting Nawrocki.

Not to mention that the whole affair seems to be a Ukrainian provocation, as General Komornicki aptly noticed (see above).

Apparently Ukraine feels so confident and strong that they don't need Polish help anymore. We should respect their wishes.

This argument between Poles and Ukrainians stinks of Russian influence to me..... don't be taken in by Russian trolls....Poles and Ukes should remain united against our common enemy.... Russia.

Russia is fvcked part 196.

What does Russia want from Poland, Milo?

Military base in Legnica? Extraterritorial highway to Królewiec? Territory? What?

None of these things? So why are they our enemy? Just curious.

Submission

They see Poland as a colony or part of their sphere of influence

Submission? In what sense? Military access? Extraterritorial bases? What form of submission are you referring to? When were such demands allegedly made of Poland, and by whom?

Or maybe those cheeky Russians want a part of Podkarpackie and Lubelskie (what they call Zakerzonia)? Maybe they demand that we take in millions of their citizens, give them child support money, free public health care, send them tribute in form of trainloads of ammo, fuel and weapons, and sacrifice a part of our budget to finance theirs? Horrible. I have to say those Russians are truly impudent with their demands!

How so? There were no open insults in the post in question.

And now Poroshenko has announced he's returning his White Eagle

Congratualions, Karol, you've turned the White Eagle from an honor to challenge to Ukrainian statehood!


Probably a lot of what the cccp wanted from Poland....

Lots of russian military bases,

Economic exploitation of the Polish economy

Control of Polish history (so that Poles are forced to repeat russian lies about Poland starting WWII and how it was really Germany that was responsible for Katyn)

The ability to censor Polish media so that things like exports of russia or other russian doings aren't covered.

Compulsory russian classes.


Калининград, товарищ! And they've already asked for/demanded that. You want to give it to them?


If you don't know....

I already explained (#429). There is diplomatic protocol which says that revoked orders should be returned through an ambassador, not sent by post. This was a deliberate and open insult.


Really? So Germany today wants a lot of what the Third Reich wanted from Poland?


Erm... you mean in the 1990s, when they sought guaranteed, privileged land transit to Kaliningrad? Poland rejected the proposal and that was it.


I am merely asking a straightforward question. All the answers I'm getting so far are rather retarded.

They wanted NATO rolled back so it did not include Poland

North Nigeria made this ultimatum in Dec 2021

Probably you agree with it

Pan slavism + beautiful metro stations

They wanted a safety buffer between Russia and NATO, and thought they were in a position to make such demand. Turned out they weren't.

It still doesn't prove that they want to submit Poland; they were merely trying to protect themselves from what they perceived (rightly or not) as a threat.

Boo hoo....
Don't act like a PiS retard.... Poland in the EU is infinitely better off than the PRL and not just economically.


Which Nawrocki spit on.... Do the name Pechersk Lavra ring a bell? Ukraine has been expected to absorb the aggression of four countries with not nearly as much outside help has been promised (about half of promised help has ever reached there IIRC).

If russia wins then there will be millions of deaths or refugees (everywhere russia has taken over has been marked by mass killings, torture rape etc)

If you really want to support russia then stop with the mealy mouth "the name hurt my feelings" bvllsh1t and openly side with putin like orban or tucker carlson.

True, for now,but I can see the day that Poles wake up, as Brits did,and realise that they are giving more into the EU than they are getting from it....

Russia is fvcked part 197.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


Really? So I guess Ukrainians have no issues with how history is being taught in RuSSia regarding Ukraine and Ukrainians? lol:

holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/news/why-does-russia-still-deny-the-holodomor/

🙄


And Poles reserve the right to decide who is worthy of our medals and who isn't.


So Ukrainians decided to build their national ethos on mass murdering fascists, but it's Poland that is not going to come out well in the international arena, because... it revoked a medal? lol 🤦 Sorry, but that wouldn't show "international arena" in a good light, imho... 🤨

And those who embarrass themselves and bore others because of things in the past that can't be changed are condemned to be stuck in la loop of impotent anger.

The Ukrainians are right to send back these 'honours' if Nawrocki is being so arsey.

You mean like the Holocaust? How many movies have been made about it?


There's anger not because of the past, but because of how Ukrainians are dealing with it nowadays. Poland has the same issues with RuSSia, but you don't seem to mind that.


If they see nothing wrong with what Zelensky did or they support it then they don't deserve those honours either. So, it's good that they're showing their true colours. I mean, it's sad, obviously, but at least we know where Ukrainians are standing and that it's not just "a problem with Zelensky."

That means nothing.

President Zelenskyy was right, Nawrocki was wrong.

And that means you have no answer :)


No, it's the other way around. For once I actually agree with Nawrocki.

And that means you're womanplaining at me.

Nawrocki just showed the world that Poland and magnanimity are words that don't belong in the same sentence.

Poland and emasculation are words that don't belong in the same sentence.

I've been saying this for over a year: Ukrainians are no more trustworthy than the Russians. It may even be worse, given that they've been considered Poland's "friends." That relationship is likely to work out about as well as the US - Israel "friendship," which exists only on paper because of Trump's and the US congress compromise.

Don't be a raging retard.

I've never supported the putinist invasion of Ukraine and you know it. There was something in the back of my head, though, telling me that Ukrainians are not such angels as some portray them to be, and that there will be trouble with their genocide whitewashing and the worship of mass murderers as heroes ("heroes" who murdered exponentially more women and children than they ever killed enemy soldiers). Turns out I was right. Rampant nationalism has this ominous tendency to turn into fascism - hence, the Waffen-SS honouring in Kiev shouldn't surprise us that much.


When are they sending back the money and the weapons? They should be consistent in their outrage.


I will tell you more. Poland will sooner be at war against Ukraine than against Russia. Other Central European/Intermarium countries noticed all that sooner than we did - Czechia, Bulgaria, Hungary (already without Orban) and Slovakia have all either stopped or severely limited their assistance to Zelenskyy's regime.

This whole "UPA heroes" affair may ultimately prove to be a blessing in disguise. Here's hoping.