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Germany. SPD coalition with CDU/CSU leaves party youth out? What it means for Poland?



SigSauer
20 Jan 2018  #31

@Tacitus

Right, had outside powers not intervened to stoke the uprising in the first place, flying weapons from Croatia via Istanbul and driving them across the border in 2011 and 2012. Russia, mind you, didn't enter the picture to support their ally and protect their vital interests until AFTER the other powers that be put deadly weapons in the hands of foreigners within Syria. This was a textbook coup d'tat from outside powers, by no stretch of the imagination was this ever, at any point in time, a grassroots 'Syrian' uprising. I am being objective and fair on the analysis here, having worked in Ukraine during 2 years of Russian invasion, I have no love for the Russians, trust me.

No, the recent drive to "unite families," had really nothing to do with children integrating. It had to do with a report released by the German government that found from a 10% rise in crimes over the last two years, 90% were committed by refugees/asylum seekers. They posited that if they reunited them with "women and their children," they would act as a mediating force to help them be 'less violent.' So, this is the race to the bottom of low expectations. Don't try to disguise it as anything else.

reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-crime/violent-crime-rises-in-germany-and-is-attributed-to-refugees-idUSKBN1ES16J

Your side has lost this argument, multiculturalism is a proven failure. Time to move on and bury this failed experiment in the bin.

mafketis
20 Jan 2018  #32

this is the race to the bottom of low expectations. Don't try to disguise it as anything else

Yes, there is no way to try to pretend that the policy has been anything but a massive failure, alienating neighboring countries and exposing German citizens to harm and an ever increasing tax burden...

dolnoslask
20 Jan 2018  #33

no way to try to pretend that the policy

The Socialist policies of Germany and France have done nothing but make their counties more dangerous places for their citizens to live.

jon357
20 Jan 2018  #34

The Socialist policies of Germany and France have

Unfortunately neither are Socialist (one is centre right and the other is centrist), however the policies there have certainly made both countries among the most prosperous, economically and socially stable places to live on the planet.

dolnoslask
20 Jan 2018  #35

have certainly made both countries among the most prosperous and pleasant places to live on the planet.

About twenty years ago I would have agreed but its bad now just visit paris or berlin, nothing but hassle day and night, I dont visit anymore.

jon357
20 Jan 2018  #36

nothing but hassle day and night,

I still find both nice. Berlin is grey and busy, Paris is, well, Paris, however both are still good places. Moscow, however...

Crnogorac3
20 Jan 2018  #37

youtu.be/z1mERkuxTfg

Putin Trashes Marx and Lenin: Practice Has Shown That Marxism Was Wrong, Family Matters!

Meanwhile in the West:

1

SigSauer
20 Jan 2018  #38

Marxism was wrong, but the "meanwhile in the West" nonsense...I guess you forgot the Christian principle of "live and let live." Are you without sin Crnogorac3? Then you cast the first stone. My opposition to immigration from certain regions and countries is precisely because I care about the liberal values that we've come to cherish in 'the West' (which you use as a pejorative, unironically), and I'd rather not see people who are by and large rabid anti-semites, want homosexuals murdered, and for women to be 3rd class citizens; to come en masse and start spreading their hateful ideological values in our societies.

jon357
20 Jan 2018  #39

Putin

Says it all. The original post is probably from a Putinist troll.

Meanwhile in the West:

Anyone who thinks that photo is in any way controversial should get a life.

Tacitus
20 Jan 2018  #40

Anyone who thinks that photo is in any way controversial should get a life.

So true. Two men kissing and living together happily seems to be morally outrageous for some. Meanwhile beating and abusing your wife and children seems to be acceptable as long as it is "moderate". Russia and family values.... .

theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/putin-approves-change-to-law-decriminalising-domestic-violence

@SigSauer

Asylum seekers who are regarded as war refugees who have relatively good chances of staying in Germany tend to avoid trouble more, the study found.

The link you provided just proves my point. It has been widely acknowledged in Germany that migrants from North Africa (who have no claim for political asylum and are thus no refugees) are far more likely to commit crimes (most of the culprits in Cologne were from North Africa) than genuin refugees. The SPD and CDU agreed to increase the efforts to deport those people faster and in larger numbers (the biggest obstacle in this are the countries in North Africa who do not want to take back their citizens).

Naturally those migrants are not appiclable for family reunification, nor are refugees who have a criminal record.

s. They posited that if they reunited them with "women and their children," they would act as a mediating force to help them be 'less violent.'

This is of course not true. One idea behind reuniting families is the knowledge that young people tend to be less inclined to unhealthy behaviour (skipping shool, taking drugs, commiting crimes) when they live in a stable family. But nobody who has commited crimes would be applicable for this problem, so the intention is not to make criminals "less violent", but to make sure that people do not get on this path in the first place.

multiculturalism is a proven failure. Time to move on and bury this failed experiment in the bin.

Which is what is now done in Germany. Multiculturalism has failed, but I suspect you do not know what multiculturalism means. In Germany it meant that immigrants were largely left alone, there was no effort to integrate them, no language classes for family members, no education programs for their children, and unfortunately a tendency among judges politicians to ignore problems, e.g. the "honour killings" of children who embraced a Western life style. All of this has changed now. There is no multiculturalism practiced in Germany anymore.

Lyzko
20 Jan 2018  #41

If no multiculturalism is practiced in Germany any longer as you assert, how is it then that according to both German as well as American sources, Germany is considered nearly the second-most multicultural country on the continent of Europe after France?

Perhaps this is a reference to urban life only.

Tacitus
20 Jan 2018  #42

German as well as American sources, Germany is considered nearly the second-most multicultural country on the continent of Europe after France?

Decades of multiculturalism do not disappear over night. And anyway, I suspect that many English sources are confusing the term "multiculturalism" with a generally high number of foreigners in the country. Or as evidenced by this forum, confuse taking refugess with multiculturalism. But as stated before, a lot of things have changed.

mafketis
20 Jan 2018  #43

All of this has changed now. There is no multiculturalism practiced in Germany anymore.

You should follow Andrew Hammel, an American legal expert living in Germany who regularly points out the absurdities and mulittudinous failures of German migration policy.

Was or was not the necessity of bringing in more migrants seriously put forth as a solution to increased crime levels (overwhelmingly by migrants)?

Or as he put it:

2015: "Migrants will fill thousands of open positions and save Germany's economy."
2018, when 1 of 6 welfare recipients in Germany is an asylum-seeker: "Nobody should be surprised; this is what we expected all along. What are you all excited about?"

Tacitus
21 Jan 2018  #44

You should follow Andrew Hammel,

I will, he seems interesting.

Was or was not the necessity of bringing in more migrants seriously put forth as a solution to increased crime levels (overwhelmingly by migrants)?

Some politicians in the opposition (particulary the Green party and the Left party) might have advocated this, but both the SPD and CDU are using other arguments. Not that it is particulary surprising that the increased of violence is attributed to migrants, since they came in a large group and are at an age (14-30) as an article stated when people are more likely to commit such crimes. This is not the first time we experience this, the Eastern Expansion of the EU has for example lead to a signficant increase in burglary, theft and robbery in Germany.

2015: "Migrants will fill thousands of open positions and save Germany's economy."

Few experts seriously contemplated this, even in 2015. Those refugees will likely never contribute enough to offset the costs, however their children could very well help Germany in the 2030s when the demograpic decline will be felt most sharply, if we can give them the necessary education.

We know that economic considerations were not part of Merkel's decision to not close the border. We know that several politicians had in early 2015 begged her for help with the refugees (including Tsipras and Orban), and the BND warned her of the possibility of an armed conflict in the Balkans, if they wre left to deal with the refugees. And since Merkel has shown a very great interest in the stability of the Balkans, she did what she thought was necessary. I don't blame her for that, however she should have prepared Germany better for this, and she should have tried negotiating a deal with Ankara much, much sooner. That is where her short-comings were.

SigSauer
21 Jan 2018  #45

I'm always curious about this. Let me say for one that I regard the SPD as an existential threat to the whole of Europe as long as Martin Schulz is in charge, someone who is openly hostile to the idea of nation-states, and who openly calls for a United States of Europe, of course with Germany leading it. Those pesky old habits really are hard to break!

Second. Let me say I've read the UN 'Replacement Migration' document and I think it is a horrendous piece of toilet paper, much the way I regarded the 'Center for A New American Century's' piece on regime change and causing chaos and human suffering.

There may be economic considerations, but the most important considerations are cultural and traditional. Those Germans had a right to their own homeland, a place they could go to be around only Germans. The English, the French, the Croats, the Hungarians, and the Poles all have this same right. Unfortunately, people from your school of thought subscribe to one point of view which is "The world is for the world, and Europe is for the world" What this means is that, people from out-migration countries like Kenya, Syria, Pakistan, and India, they are entitled to have a relatively homogeneous homeland, and are not facing international pressure to take millions of foreigners and give them citizenship in their countries, however, any Western country is obligated to destroy their societal identity and fabric in the name of your grand social engineering project. I find this school of thought to be sophomoric and repugnant.

Wulkan
21 Jan 2018  #46

Those refugees will likely never contribute enough to offset the costs, however their children could

Create full of crime ghettos as the history showed many times before.

SigSauer
21 Jan 2018  #47

@Tacitus

I want to let this one marinate for you. This is a glaring double standard, a mere few paragraphs in The Guardian about Israel's plan to deport 40,000 North Africans who were seeking refuge, "Israel PM: illegal African immigrants threaten identity of Jewish state". I have never seen this on the front page of CNN, or any other major international news networks. Why the glaring omission from the MSM on this particular issue? No public outcry, no large protests, no rabid condemnation by world leaders over this in the way we saw with the travel ban in the U.S. It's ok for them to protect their identity, but not for Western nations to do so? Israel by the way, like the United States, is a country built entirely by settlers and immigrants.

theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyahu-african-immigrants-jewish

Tacitus
21 Jan 2018  #48

however, any Western country is obligated to destroy their societal identity and fabric in the name of your grand social engineering project.

This has nothing to do with social engineering or other nonsense, it is simply Germany owing up to the responsibilities it has accepted by accepting the Convention on refugees and by being the economically strongest country in Europe. Southern European countries asked for help, and Germany answered. I would have expected others to follow, but unfortunately solidarity does not seem to highly valued anymore. Refugees are no threat to any national identity, certainly not while they enter in a reasonable number. Poland could easily absorb 10k refugees per year.

Why the glaring omission from the MSM on this particular issue?

Who knows, the issue has been broadly covered in Germany.

TheOther
21 Jan 2018  #49

The source is in my post (although it is in German).

The Tagesschau is a largely SPD controlled news outlet that's not to be trusted. They were amongst the first ones who tried to sweep the New Year's Eve attacks under the carpet. Unforgivable.

2 millions is too high anyway

The statistics seem to tell a different story. Since 2015 Germany had over 1.5 million asylum applications, not counting the 130,000+ people that magically disappeared once they were in the country...

de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/76095/umfrage/asylantraege-insgesamt-in-deutschland-seit-1995

focus.de/politik/deutschland/mehr-als-130-000-menschen-mehr-als-jeder-zehnte-registrierte-fluechtling-ist-nicht-mehr-aufzufinden_id_5315178.html

Germany could not grant more than 1k Visas per month anyway.

When the country opened its borders, the Germans were promised that there will be NO family reunification. Now all of a sudden that's not true anymore? People were also told that once asylum is denied, the migrants would be sent back. Also not happening because the migrants are allowed to file a law suit against their deportation and they can go all the way to the Supreme Court. That will take years , and the whole system is overwhelmed already.

To be honest, I believe that your politicians are shafting you again as usual. They tell you that "we manage" and that the asylum seekers will all go home one day, but in reality they will of course stay and they will also be allowed to bring their families. Just wait and see. As I said before: you folks are ignoring the writings on the wall. There will come a day when people finally have enough, and that'll be the unfortunate day the right wingers will take over Germany and the rest of Europe. Don't complain then, because you had your chance to do the right thing. Just like in 1932/33.

SigSauer
21 Jan 2018  #50

@Tacitus

Yea, Poland probably COULD absorb 10k per year, as in they have the capacity to do so. However, they are a sovereign country, and its certainly their prerogative who they choose to allow into their country and in what numbers, and based on any criteria they so choose. If Poland declared tomorrow anyone foreigner with red hair was not allowed into the country, that is their right as a sovereign country. You may be ok with this in Germany, but stop trying to export your world view to other countries where its unwelcome. The arrogance of such an attitude is just unconscionable to me.

cms
21 Jan 2018  #51

The Israelis disgraceful treatment of migrants was covered extensively - generally with criticism, in every paper I read - the Washington Post, Telegraph, Figaro, the Guardian and several Polish papers. They are all what you ridicule as MSM

Lyzko
21 Jan 2018  #52

@Tacitus,

The way I read the sources (including the SPIEGEL, as I posted privately), Germany has become overwhelmed by non-German-speaking migrants who are seen as lowering standards in any number of professional areas, not to mention the standards for school admission.

Not knowing the target language of the country in which one receives their basic education is as are as I'm concerned, the beginning of the end!

jon357
21 Jan 2018  #53

Germany has become overwhelmed by non-German-speaking migrants

No, it certainly hasn't been 'overwhelmed'. Far from it.

Lyzko
21 Jan 2018  #54

Perhaps not among the academic elite or top earners, but I must disagree roundly as concerns the rank-and-file "non-minority" Germans, earning less than an upper-middle class salary! They most certainly do feel themselves overwhelmed, surrounded, and, yes, outnumbered.

jon357
21 Jan 2018  #55

Yet they aren't. Not by a long chalk.

Lyzko
21 Jan 2018  #56

Can't correct people's feelings, jon! Maybe you I and I THINK better, but only those who claim to be suffering as a result of multiculturalism, actually know better!

dolnoslask
21 Jan 2018  #57

Very fair comment, you wouldn't know unless you stand in their shoes.

jon357
21 Jan 2018  #58

but only those who claim to be suffering

In one of the richest and most advanced societies in the planet, I don't see that much suffering. Nor do the people there, the vast majority of whom vote for parties that maintain the status quo.

mafketis
21 Jan 2018  #59

I don't see that much suffering

Cause you don't live there, read German (do you?) and ultimately.... don't care if a bunch of Germans find life more difficult because of Mama Merkel's muddled headed policies.

dolnoslask
21 Jan 2018  #60

In one of the richest and most advanced societies in the planet

And mass murderers of millions, to the victor the spoils.

Just think what Poland may of achieved if millions were not slaughtered it's cities were not reduced to dust and it was not enslaved under Soviet rule.. One can only dream of what could have been......but hey history favours the bully's and colonialists bad boys.


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