Poland - Serbia etc. thread

:D

*thumbs up!*

Reigning European and World Champions in basketball at the time, the best white team ever assembled, the only one which could seriously challenge the Americans.

documentarymania.com/player.php?title=Once%20Brothers

Vlade Divac and Drazen Petrovic were the first two European players to play successfully in the NBA and they opened the door for other international players. Vlade Divac is from Serbia while Drazen Petrovic who is considered the greatest European basketball player of all time, his father was Serbian and mother Croatian.

youtu.be/vN8QJ3tMBg4

Ironically, his final match was in Poland.

youtu.be/fvVrz_8OZCg

I was never much into basketball, but the first football Euro qualifiers that I remember were the ones for Euro 92. Yugoslavia won their group ahead of Denmark, who later bacame European Champions. And of course back then Crvena Zvezda was a super team! Can you imagine a Serbian team winning the Champions League today?

Absolutely. That what remain from Germany after EU issue. We should accept those remains, I agree.


Yes, this could work. I see it clearly. It would be blessed by USA and Russia equally.


Kind of.


Don`t worry for that. Scientifically, Germans are Serbs and one of these days that fact is about to be presented to them from higher authorities. You shall see, they would be valuable when they are free of delusion.


You didn`t think we left you to France?


Real world? After this year, everything is possible. Germans walking as proud Slavs would be normal.


Croatian forces were and are ustashe, kind of local bandera clique. Bosnian forces were and are mix of local and foreign mujaheedines.


True. Now would be long lasting peace with Russians in Italy. Maybe they even decide to stay for very long. To help there. God knows South of Italy needs Russian help.

@Crow
Have you got motanki in Serbia?

What is motanki, dobri brate?

*siostro; )

They're Slavic 'dolls' made of old fabric but without using scissors. They were said to bring good luck to the person who made them.

You really need to check it out. I didn't know about them only last year and now I do. A very Slavic thing, you know.

A bit like a poppet in English, although those also have a darker use...

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Interesting...I googled that:

"According to historians, Motanka dolls appeared in Ukraine several thousand years ago, dating back to ancient Trypillia times . Our ancestors believed that natural threads and materials used to create these dolls are magical and protect the family from evil spirits.

The Motanka doll is faceless; the cross symbolizes the unity of heaven and earth, four cardinal points, four seasons, and the sun. The doll is an amulet, so it cannot have a human appearance, protects its owner(s), and brings fertility to the homestead.

These dolls are usually made of the natural materials such as hay, straw, wood, herbs, dry leaves, grains, seeds and are filled with fragrant herbs and decorated with traditional ornaments and embroidery.

Today, Motanka dolls have became a popular gift idea for various holidays and weddings, baby showers, engagements, and even funerals. The wedding Motanka doll helps brides turn away the evil eye and supports them during their marriage. At the birth of a child, relatives often offer a Motanka doll that lies in the child's bed in order to protect the newborn's sleep and health."

facebook.com/euromaidanpress.en/posts/traditional-ukrainian-motanka-dolls-according-to-historians-motanka-dolls-appear/645016185682187/

facebook.com/euromaidanpress.en/photos/pcb.645016185682187/645016059015533/?type=3&theater

.....

"...The name "Trypillia" means "three fields" in the Slavic languages. It was first mentioned by Kievan chroniclers in connection with the Battle of the Stugna River in 1093. During the 12th century, Trypillia was a fortress which defended approaches towards Kiev from the steppe. One of its rulers was Mstislav Mstislavich...."

Pre-christian european heritage! :)

I wonder if Motanka dolls have a similar use here...

@jon357
That's really cool. I didn't know about poppets either.
From a short description, I kind of assume they are similar to motanki.

@Bratwurst Boy
That's pretty much it. The fabric used to make them should have some sort of connection to the person to make it work.
Also you can't use scissors.
Some of them would wear a triangular scarf or something according to what I read - how do you make one without scissors?

Here's an article but in Polish
akademiaducha.pl/motanki-slowianskie-amulety/

I looked at some pictures and motanki do look prettier.

What have people done before scissors were developed? :)

I find such old traditions rather cool...


Even if faceless figures are kind of horror-movie-creepy...I would be tempted to draw at least a smiley face on mine...

Most people couldn't afford a pair even long after thet were developed. The paper 'wycinanki' on display at Lublin Castle were done over a century ago using what people had, often a pair of sheep shears.


They were used in folk magic, not always in a good way.

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Great work with what they had! :)


"Folk magic" is the passed on memory of the age old culture and belief of our ancestors...I always had a soft spot for that!

The info said:

"...The doll is an amulet, so it cannot have a human appearance..."

I would like to know more about that. Why can't an amulet not have a human appearance?

So it doesn't have a soul. The threads are also wound east to west, in the direction of the sun.

That soul concept is christian, isn't it? But these dolls are naturalistic/pagan, pre-christian...

The old germanic gods for example had been very human, they had faces, bodies and strong personalities (good and bad)...heaven and hell had been real locations (Valhalla above and Hel underground) that's why I wonder about this slavic pagan reasoning behind them.

The face thing may well be an aspect that came after Christianisation. Unless of course ithe face taboo also existed before in the eastern Slavic world. The concept of a soul certainly exists in British traditional belief; at least in its revived form.

...now that is interesting too!

Thanks for sharing that. I`ll check it. Very interesting.


You use stone.

This is about ancient thing, which roots goes much deeper in time then Christian era.

In old Serbian (Slavic- ie European, because all Europeans originate from Slavs) religion is warmly suggested to avoid use of scissors or anything metal when deal with dead people. As Veselin Cajkanovic (Serbian scientist on religious history) said, the custom is from era before people even knew for metal, so before neolithic times, 7000 BC.

So, these dolls may have something with dead. Maybe to accompany dead in funeral burial. Or, same logic to avoid scissors/metal could be applied if dolls are made for children or as kind of amulet for luck. To understand think with mind of ancients. For ancients, metal was novelty, while their ancestors used stone much longer before. Therefore, when deal with serious things (death, life) you would tend to keep to tradition. Then, with time, restriction of use of metal entered in tradition of descendants and became custom.

Ha ha ha............ now that is hilarious!

Perhaps a connection with fertility. The traditional Slavic palm crosses look very very similar to English corn dollies. In England, traditionally (and sometimes today) people always made two after each harvest; one would be drenched with water and 'sacrificed'; the other would be kept until the spring to guarantee a good harvest in the following year. Perhaps the Polish palm crosses evolved from a function like this.

Does Serbia have such a tradition?

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@Bratwurst Boy
Before scissors, I believe, they used knives but you can't use anything sharp to make a motanka.
They don't have faces because that might give away the power to someone who resembles them.
@Crow
Actually they were connected with the living. Some were to bring fertility as Jon suggested.

Actually throughout Europe certain pagan traditions are pretty similar. I really don't know much about Germanic customs but when it comes to Slavic and British (Celtic ) ones, some seem similar.

Apart from motanki /poppets or palm crosses /corn dollies, Dziady and Halloween seem similar, too.
I wonder if that's because of some really ancient common beliefs.
Celts went to Britain from Central Europe, didn't they?
What do you guys think?

Three of the main Christian holidays are Christmas, close to the winter Solstice, Easter, close to the Spring Equinox and All Hallows, close to the autumn Equinox. The summer Solstice is quite big in Poland too, of course; some beautiful and ancient traditions.

Some things are universal, including the way European societies divide the year. Even in protestant Britain (where All Souls/All Saints is less of a thing), the 5th of November is absolutely huge, every community celebrating it.


Possibly even older; the Beaker People had huge cultural influence wherever they lived.

Now that is an explanation...I never heard of that before though, thanks!


Absolutely agree! The more one learns about our common european heritage the less sense makes all the common disunity and the usual infighting...

One of the main roles of European holidays is to mark the changing of seasons, the shift from spring to summer is the least significant and therefore the holiday associated with it (St John's day) is less important in the north. A friend had lived in South America below the equator where it was one of the big holidays (because it marked the beginning of winter....)

Easy to forget that the seasons are the other way round south of the equator. One thing that I'm getting used to after recently coming back from three years in the tropics is the lengthening and shortening days.

With agrarian societies of course, the change of seasons was literally a life and death matter. Of course there is still one demographic that worldwide celebrate the solstices, or the two Holy Saint Johns.

Indo-Europeans and all that. Germanic are those IE who went to Scandinavia got f in the ass by some refiners scattered every each way yapping something about Teutonic furry to hide their embarrassment.

Look who were builders of Stonehenge. Serbs.

Now, when you know that first (after Ice age was over) life line, or to say backbone, of Europe went from western Balkan (with center of what is now Serbia) all the way to Baltic and then also, if you know, that entire Baltic in oldest written data had name `Serbian Ocean`, you can quite clearly get to most accurate conclusion that first people on Britain came there from Baltic. What part of Baltic? I think from continental Central/Western Europe around Arkona where was most densely populated Baltic area or they possible came from some other poorer Baltic region. But no matter what part, when they came to Britain they arrived as Serbs.

Now Celts. They are determined to be equally sedentary Sarmatians and of nomadic branch of Sarmatians- Scythians. Those who came to Britain were obviously sedentary and largest sedentary Sarmatian/ie Celtic area was all around that ancient backbone along the Danube river from Balkan to Baltic. But in any case they had to have information on Britain and possibility to go there, so I suppose they in any case came from Central Europe (or bordering region of Central and Western Europe) closer to the Baltic coast to be able to travel by sea.

BUT, if first Serbs knew for Britain at a time when Britain was no island but had land connection to continent, it is quite possible that first our people there came as nomadic and as hunters gatherers and not as seafaring people. In that case, first people there could possible came directly out of was steppes of what is now Ukraine, Russia and Eurasia. Actually, theoretically, they could come from anywhere of Europe, Eurasia, Near East, Anadolia all the way to the Ind river, parts of Northern Africa. All that was ancient Sarmatian realm.

These days Serbian TV media mentioned Tadeusz Mazowiecki and Aleksander Kwaśniewski as proved and open enemies of everything Serbian, in their times.

What I want to tell you, look who are political descendants of those two in Poland and don`t vote for them. No, not just as kind of your support to Serbs. Actually, even more because if you follow traces of those in Poland who worked and works against Serbs you would find out how are they mortal enemies of Poland and everything Polish and desire only utter evil to Poles. For them (rather, to their masters), Serbs are only obstacle to total fall of Poland and so comes their work against Serbs.