Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Why do you keep insisting that a government which has been democratically elected in a state which is headed by democratically elected president should be called a "regime"?

Ok, maybe i do not understand you correctly @ Barney.

At what point do you expect Ukraine to adhere to "democratic norms". At a time when the president himself has already dismantled democracy completely or when the country faces war on it's own turf with a part of its territory already annexed by it's neighbour?

oh...Lyashko beaten in parliament again..this is 3-rd or 4-th time i see someone beating poor Lyashko in parliament..
youtube.com/watch?v=mTPS4bv0aC4

hes a radical party leader,but hes own sister is fighting in Donbass on rebels side. its abit too personal for him i think

Jolly
Its really very simple, I expect any state that wishes to be regarded as democratic to adhere to democratic norms. So far the kiev regime has done much to thwart an investigation they initiated, you have said that there should be no investigation as everything was known. I have demonstrated that your interpertation has been wrong on two counts. The violence that took place before your perfered start date of 30th November 2013 and the unconstutional nature of the presidents removal.

Its clear that an investigation in needed before we can talk about facts.

That's a very naive (or disingenuous) statement when balanced against Russia and Putin's sustained campaign to destabilise democracy in Ukraine.

Not really, there is nothing disingenuous about expecting a democratic state to behave like a democratic state.

Extremely disingenuous when one of the least democratic of the world's major countries has thrown all it has at preventing them from achieving that aim.

I'll ask you again what is disingenuous about expecting a democratic state to adhere to democratic norms? You have not said what is "disingenuous" about that statement.

Barney, stop trying (and by the way failing) to argue for the sake of it. It's a very unappealing habit. And yes, it's disingenuous to try to hold Ukraine to a standard that others are determined to prevent them meeting.

No you have not. I have not disputed the 24th of November but we can regard it as a single incident. Violence at demonstrations happen across Europe almost every weekend. It is almost to be expected. The demonstration in Kyiv on the 24th can be regarded as a single incident because afterwards, the protest on Maidan went back to what it was, a peaceful student protest. Continous violence, every day mass demonstrations only occurred after the night of the 30th of November. That is a fact. There is nothing to be investigated about. Same as the draconian laws signed by Yanukovich. That is a fact. No investigation needed.

But, in any way, you can of course have your investigation but I am sure that you understand that a country at war, with parts of its territory already annexed, has different priorities. Of course, you can continue to argue your democratic norms and due processes but that is a very easy thing to do from the comfort of your warm sofa, seeing that you do not have to experience the war yourself.

What is disingenuous about expecting a democratic state to adhere to democratic norms. Jon you threw the accusation I'm simply asking you to explain what is on your mind.

Jolly I realise that you don't expect Ukraine to adhere to democratic norms, I thought you did when you changed your opinion but you have changed again so we will just leave it.

When did I change my opinion and about what?

I can see a pattern here once again. A couple of weeks ago you kept repeating "due process was not followed". Now you are back and keep repeating "democratic norms". Do you have anything else to contribute, perhaps with a bit of substance or shall I put you down as part of the trolling gang?

Barney, see post 3318.

Jolly, I agree. The term in English is 'backseat driver'. Here there are unrealistic expectations from those whose lives are unaffected whatever happens there.

Jon you threw an accusation and again refuse to explain what you thought was a smart comment. Unless you explain it remains jibberish.

Jolly, due process and democratic norms are central to democracy, that may be a surprise to you but unless you make a mother of an argument on how they are not central to democracy they remain central. In Ukraine neither have been evident.

Barney, you aren't making any sense as per usual. Everything in the posts on this page (except for yours and Gregy's perhaps) is clear and self-explanatory. If you have failed to understand a simple sentence, expanding on that is unlikely to make anything easier for you; nor will restating something in a different way make a situation different.

If however you just wish to argue for the sake of it (on past form this is the most likely situation) going down the pub to talk might be a better option than sitting in front of a computer with a drink.

Grand, you refuse to explain It remains jibberish, that's fine no one is forcing you to reply.

Indeedy doody. Thought if you think that a clear statement is gibberish you must find some of your own posts to be entirely impenetrable.

And, as in this thread, adding nothing.

It's very simple complete below

Expecting a democratic state to adhere to democratic norms is disingenuous because....................

Don't be silly Barney.

I'm serious, I would like to know what thought process came up with that idea.

In future Instead of attacking me it may be better to think before posting your "smart" comments.

If you dislike smart comments, then logically you must prefer daft ones. Really Barney, if you can't understand a self-explanatory statement, then you are truly as obtuse as the regime currently terrorising the Ukraine.

It might be a good idea to examine some of your assertions in this thread, the most egregious being accusing the Maidan protesters of undermining rather than fighting for democracy.

it's very simple I'll start

Expecting democratic states to adhere to democratic norms is disingenuous because.........

Somehow I get the feeling there is going to be several pages of evasion, just complete the above to end the misery. If you can't we can promise to never mention it again and pretend it didn't happen. It's ok we all make mistakes, I once opened a can of tomatoes thinking I was opening a can of chick peas.

You can expect whatever you like, but won't receive. You should have realised long ago that trying to wind people up always and without exception results in your failure. Often spectacularly so.

You threw the accusation I asked you to explain it really is that simple.

Barney, is there any chance you can explain why you keep insisting that a government which has been democratically elected in a state which is headed by democratically elected president should be called a "regime"? Or is the reason the obvious one?

Polish Deputy Prime Minister Janusz Piechocinski told Reuters news agency on Tuesday that he is disappointed with Ukraine's failure to make headway in establishing a democratic political system, adding that the country's economic collapse threatens Poland's security.

Read more:
sputniknews.com/europe/20150303/1019017417.html#ixzz3TMWmkzuK

from western media(not zeezeeindia):
reuters.com/article/2015/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-poland-minister-idUSKBN0LZ1DH20150303

Wow, you have absolutely no shame do you? What "Sputnik News" has reported as Piechocinski saying to Reuters, somehow reads completely different in the actual Reuters article.

There is absolutely no mentioning of his disappointment "with Ukraine". Nor is there any mention of "post-coup" or all the other fine brainwashing words and phrases that Sputnik managed to build in.

Well done gregy, you have one again shown your competency.

you blind?or cant read?

Here's the Reuters article
mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0LZ1DH20150303?irpc=932

Perhaps gregy can point out where it says what he claims?

you right...no mention of any "disappointment "with Ukraine" its in your head,,you lie as usual.
tho its said and quoted of his disappointment with Ukraine's elites..which is absolutely correct in sputnik news.
you pony anger and pathetic attempt to discredit sputnik end up as farce,as everything you post here.trash as i said

sputnik:
"Unfortunately, the elites have disappointed. One year ago it seemed that Ukraine was on course to become a stable, predictable democracy of our sphere of values," Piechocinski noted in an interview for Reuters news agency published Tuesday.

Read more:
sputniknews.com/europe/20150303/1019017417.html#ixzz3TMfOTb3W

reuters:

"Unfortunately, the elites have disappointed. One year ago it seemed that Ukraine was on course to become a stable, predictable democracy of our sphere of values," Piechocinski said.