Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Fortunately they aren't an authoritarian regime. Ukraine is remarkably democratic given that they have never been allowed the chance to develop a true democracy. Indeed all their efforts to do so have been frustrated by Russia and its puppets like Yanukovich the poisoner.


The free world hopes that when the Putinists invaders are driven out, they will have some norms to adhere to. So far they have been deliberately prevented from achieving this.

That is incorrect. I have agreed to your point of the 24th of November. However, I have also said that the rioting from the 24th can be seen as an isolated incident. Why? Because between the 24th and 30th of November it was relatively quiet on the streets of Kyiv compared to what happened after the night / bloodbath of 30th November. Up until the 30th of November, the protest was nothing more than a small student protest with one incident of rioting on the 24th. And it would have remained a small student protest if Berkut would not have brutally disbursed the crowd on the 30th which was the trigger for the masses to come out and more importantly stay out.


I have not, in any of my posts, claimed that the war in Eastern Ukraine has had anything to do with Yanukovich's removal. Or perhaps removal is the wrong word so let me rephrase........ I have not, in any of my posts, claimed that the war in Eastern Ukraine has had anything to do with Yanukovich fleeing the city of Kyiv. Perhaps you would be so kind and point out to me the post in which I have said anything like that.


Now we are getting to the war and perhaps this is where you are confused about what I have said. Do you realize that shortly after Yanukovich fled the country, Ukraine and it's interim government faced occupation of Crimea by the little green men? The little green men which Putin at that point claimed not to be regular Russian troops? That occupation was followed by annexation of Crimea by Russia. Shortly after that, war erupted in Eastern Ukraine. Do you agree that the government, whether interim or the then democratically elected president Poroshenko, have had and still have different priorities? They can either invest their time and resources into the investigation of things past or concentrate and utilize their resources on the current war on their own territory.


An inquiry is necessary however, not into facts such as the bloodbath of the 30th of November or the draconian laws signed by Yanukovich. Why not? Because they happened. What kind of investigation into the signing of the draconian laws, which would have stripped Ukrainians of their last rights to freedom of speech and freedom of opinion, do you need? Do you want to find out which pen he used to sign them?


It is not irrelevant because the corruption, brutality and almost dictatorship were the reasons for the masses to join Euromaidan which ultimately led to Yanukovich fleeing Kyiv. Here is they key to what you call "the new regime" because if Yanukovich would have acted as a democratically elected leader, none of the events that led to his ousting would have happened despite the fact that some claim "it was planned long ago".

The only people preventing the new regime instigating a proper investigation is the new regime. As pointed out to Jolly there was no war when the president was removed. The rather weak investigation that was established has been hindered by the new regime. Starting what is claimed to be a new democratic era by ignoring democratic norms is not exactly encouraging as discussed nor is attempting to ban political parties and threatening to declare marshal law.

Edit
You are correct did not claim the war had anything to do with his removal, you did say that there was no investigation needed because of the war.

Your explanations above illustrate the point that facts are not known and these events need investigated.

The Russian invasion of Crimea started three days after Turchynov was appointed.

While we're talking about Turchynov, any chance you can explain why you claim Turchynov stood in the 2010 presidential election and got one percent of the vote?

Not enough edit time, I scanned your post......

I found this bit strange


Let me get this straight, you are saying it's only worth having an inquiry into events you would like investigated because everything else happened? That is almost the classic definition of a whitewash.

I said above that the old regime should be investigated however their corruption cannot be used as an excuse to not hold an open enquiry as you seem to be suggesting.

What's strange, Barney, is the way you try to pretend you never get caught telling blatant whoppers here. Please explain why you claim Turchynov stood in the 2010 presidential election and got one percent of the vote.

No, there was no war when Yanukovich fled Kyiv, however, you will find that the interim government almost instantly faced occupation of Crimea, then annexation of Crimea and then war in Eastern Ukraine which is still ongoing. Do you not understand this?


They do not ignore democratic norms. They are dealing with a war on their own territory. Perhaps it is difficult for you to understand, writing from the comfort of your warm sofa, but the priority for the new government, at this moment in time, can not be investigations into things past.


I did not say that. I said there are certain things which do not need to be investigated, such as the draconian laws signed by Yanukovich. I said, that the priorities are different at the moment and I would find it very strange if the new government would sit down to investigate what happened instead of dealing with the war on their own territory.


No, that is not what I am saying. But what exactly do you want to investigate about the night of 30th of November? Do you want to know exactly how many people were hospitalized by Berkut? What is it that you want to find out about this event?


I have not suggested anything like that.

I am on my sofa are you in a trench? Dreaming about my living conditions has nothing to do with the subject.

So it's still no need for an investigation into things you don't want investigated and democratic norms can be ignored because of the war.

That's grand, I would love to see a fully democratic Ukraine however the coup destroyed any chance that could happen. Ukraine is now on the austerity hook and has no prospect of improving the lives of the people in the foreseeable future.

No, but it is easy for someone to call for democratic standards in a place that one does not have to be in. Perhaps your mindset would change if it was your country that would be currently dealing with a war on it's own territory. For you it is easy to talk about democratic norms, because you do not experience the suffering. As jon said "backseat driver".


Which coup? As far as I remember, the agreement between Yaukovich and the opposition was to hold early democratic elections. The fact that Yanukovich decided to flee the country in the same night, is not really the fault of the opposition.

Indeed. At the time of the second Iraq war a commentator (in the Guardian, a publication Barney has praised) said that it was unreasonable for the Americans to expect demoracy to suddenly emerge like water finding its level where there had been none before; the writer said they can't expect it to become Sweden overnight.


Very much so. There was a total absence of democracy before with jailed and poisoned opposition leaders and a dictator abusing a system (as is normal in most of the former Soviet Union) and now at least they have a government who are firmly on a path to democracy and the rule of law. We can only hope by the will of the Ukrainian people and support from the democratic states in Europe that the Putnists are no longer able to frustrate that at every juncture.

It's normal and natural to ask those who claim to be democratic to behave like democrats, fantasising about my living conditions has nothing to do with the thread. Backseat driver is a particluarly stupid comment given that no one here has claimed to be directing economic or military policy in Ukraine, we are making comments on a forum that's all.

If there were transparency we would know which coup and the circumstances behind the presidents removal.

Even more normal to acknowledge what is possible to achieve and what is harder to achieve, and even more normal still to understand that when a poor country is invaded by a large, ruthless, undemocratic and tyrannical neighbour any sort of democracy is a huge achievement.


You mean the undemocratically elected president-poisoner's flight to his masters in Moscow.

Which coup, Jolly? The one which exists only in the mind of Barney, along with an elected government in a country led by a democratically elected president being a 'regime', neo-Nazis being in charge of Ukrainian government ministries and Turchynov getting one percent of the vote in the 2010 presidential election. Barney loves to litter this forum with things he's made up.

Jon, Yanukovych was democratically elected in a process deemed fair.

Most regimes wishing to establish democratic legimitacy do so by being open and transparent, if they wish to demonstrate how Yanukovich's removal was constitutional it would be very easy for them to do so. It's not a question of what is possible or achievable, this regime is not attempting to be open or transparent, it's blocking its own, admittedly very weak, investigation.

Hit the nail on the head really.


Interesting that you think poisoning opposition candidates is fair.


That's a staggering statement


Really:


bbc.com/news/world-europe-20120888


spiegel.de/international/europe/german-press-review-on-yanukovych-election-victory-in-ukraine-a-864237.html

you talking about yushchenko?...what poisoning,you keep talking about?
here is another example what mass media brainwashing can do to otherwise healthy mind.not only there is no evidence of janukowicz involvement,but there is even doubt any poisoning was conducted at all .yet you already found responsible person..how typical of western mass media brainwashed tool..if he was really poisoned,tymoshenko biatch would be my bet.she got long history of killing people she doesn't like.

but that i guess become part of democratic procedure in Ukraine those days.clearly associated with "western freedom and democracy" installers


was that suppose to be attempt to entertain us?

Jon
I didn't make any comment on the poisoning allegation I simply repeated the view of the OSCE. This is the second time in this thread you have confused the two elections.

From your BBC link


That quote reflects what I said and the overwhelming view of the international community.

We know that Yanukovich's removal was unconstitutional. The very thin argument that yanukovich's removal was legimitate hinges on the vote in the Rada which you have pointed out was the result of a less than democratic process. A backward step was the description used in the link you posted. His removal was undemocratic and unconstutional ie a coup.

There is nothing staggering about my statement, the new regime have made no effort to strive for transparency they have done the opposite. Its not a question of what is possible or achievable neither can happen simply because without the desire change is impossible and unachievable.

Still trying to fudge the issue, I see. Don't conduse polling stations with jailed and poisoned (yes I do know that one was the first election in which Yanukowych tried to kill the opposition leader and in his second one he had her jailed on trumped up charges) candidates.


You mean his fleeing to his masters in Moscow.


Again trying to mislead, to lie and to hope that people will swallow your numerous fantasies. Yanukovych fleeing the country (unfortunately with some of the assets he plundered) as a result of the people's protests was democracy in action.


Perhaps staggering was the wrong word. Ridiculous is a better description.


That's pure fantasy. Perhaps you think they should do the impossible and achieve the unachievable.

We now see that after Pan Zbigniew Brzezinski, one lady from the west of Europe also have good suggestion. That`s Mrs. Federica Mogherini. Very constructive approach. Great thanks in the name of Slavic children that live in affected region.

EU foreign policy chief against sending weapons to Ukraine




i love you Federica.

There is no fudging the issue I have been very clear.

You on the other hand have confused the presidential elections with the rada elections and are unclear which election you are talking about and linking to all your clarification above has done is add more elections that you could possibly be confused about.

Now.....
You linked to news reports about an election held in 2012 to demonstrate that Yanukovich was returned in an undemocratic election. The problem is the presidential election was held in 2010 and the OSCE described it as fair. He was democratically elected unless you think the OSCE is wrong and can demonstrate why they are wrong.

The reports you chose to highlight describe that election (2012) as a backward step, remember You chose those links I didn't so how you can accuse me of misleading by quoting your links is beyond any rational person. You are now saying that the news reports you googled for and posted here contain lies? That is more than odd it's really unbelievable and may be a first here.

Are you now withdrawing the reports you pointed to? They tend to undermine your position so it may be better to find some links that say the OSCE is wrong.

No, he is in his parents basement drinking pepsi and getting cheeto dust in his keyboard.


Not necessarrily true.
Have you ask yourself why Yanukovich didn't act democratically ?
Is it possible that he was put into office so all of this would take place so something much bigger could be pulled off ?
Was there a method to this madness ?
If you can PROVE to me otherwise I sure would like to hear it.
We all know what took place from 2010 to the present. No arguement there.
A little more research before that time line and you might get another piece of the conspiracy puzzle.

As clear as mud, Barney and full of the usual misinformation.


Not in the slightest since they are both critical of Yanokovych who posoned and jailed opposition leaders.

Now Barney, time to give us a laugh. Do you still pretend to stand by your outrageous and ridiculous comment that:

Sure I have nothing better to do then "proving" you wrong on your fantasies :) :)

As clear as mud?
You chose links that contradicted the point you were trying to make. Not only that, the links you chose undermine the wafer thin argument that the president's removal was within the law.

It's clear that you can't show that the OSCE is wrong and your accusation is nonsense, it's clear that you are very confused on both chronology and the exact events you wish to debate.

Nothing can be achieved when there is no will to make it possible there is no openness, in fact the opposite is happening, the new "ministry of truth" and the hampering of the weak investigation around the coup being measures meant to obscure. So it's clear that this is not a question of what is possible or achievable the new regime and you don't think openness or democratic norms are important in Ukraine.

Yep. Rather like your last paragraph in the post above which is classic fudging

Now let's have a look at the ridiculous statement that you regret making and tell us if you still stand by it:


Does that mean you think that it's a question of what is impossible and unachievable?

My exact words


I have explained three times now

There is no will to be open or transparent by this new regime so openess can't possibly happen. It's impossible to talk about what is achievable when the new regime don't want openess to happen.

In short .....X doesn't exist so X can't possibly happen....

Now it's your turn to explain why expecting a democratic state to adhere to democratic norms is disingenuous?

It's good that you have now realised that your links have undermined your position and shown your assertion to be wrong.

Or tried to wriggle out of the ridiculous comment:



You do seem to forget (or pretend to forget) that they're currently being illegally invaded by a country with possible the worst record in the world for human rights abuse and lack of transparency.

Now let's find a bit of clarity, Barney. Does your firmly held conviction that:


mean that you think they should focus on what is impossible and unachievable?

I do honestly believe that to be true.
Don't forget to take your little white pills before you post however as
rudeness does breed rudeness.


Who, Korea ?

They've only been at it for 60 years. Their huge neighbour for far longer...

I must confess there is little merit let alone sense in attempting to talk to a person whose understanding of the issues involved and capacity to debate them on an advanced level are evidently sub-standard.

I admire your fortitude and a sturdy mental constitution which allows you to maintain your calm in the face of disrespect, bluster and ignorance.

I would like to add I agree with you on your take on Ukrainian matters.