Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Here we go again...

I have explained three times what I meant which is the exact opposite of attempting to wriggle out of anything. You can check what I said above. If there is something you don't understand perhaps you could point to it or since you think I'm trying to wriggle out of something you could explain what that something is.

For the fourth time.....
With this new regime the question of openness is not possible and is not achievable simply because they have obstructed openess. They have hampered their own investigation they have created a "ministry of truth" to censor and manipulate the media.

Again my words (below) in full and in context replying to you talking about what was possible (for this new regime) to achieve


Now you were wrong and shown to be wrong on the first part, the links you provided proved you wrong. You were confused about the chronology and exact events and threw mud and abuse like a child.

Now the second part of my post, I have explained it to you four times something you have never done for me or anyone else preferring to post comments you thought made you look smart and refusing to explain when challenged.

Ok, For the fifth time now my comment replying to you means.....

1 democracy means open and transparent government
2 new regime not open, not transparent
3 they could have an investigation
4 they chose not to
5 it's not about what is possible in this investigation
6 because there is no will to make it possible
7 they are sabotaging their own investigation.

Nothing was possible, nothing was achievable because they didn't and don't want openness.

I have explained my comment now you explain what is disingenuous about expecting a democratic state to adhere to democratic norms. You continually refuse to explain what you meant yet demand others to jump to your command. It's clear you posted your comment because you thought it was rather smart.

Vox
Thank you, I have teenage children and keeping calm comes easily to me. An experience that has taught me when to explain When to deflect abuse and when to ignore lunatics.

If only. All you've really done is claimed:


then tried to get out of that without saying anything new. And then made sweeping statements like:


This 'investigation' you keep trying to talk about isn't the issue. The issue is the illegal invasion of the Ukraine and the efforts of Russia to undermine the democratically elected government which replaced their stooge, who as far as I know is now in Russia living off the millions he stole. And of course you do seem to be trying to hold Ukraine to a higher standard of public life than Russia. Fortunately they've achieved a higher standard, especially since Yanukovych fled - this is something of an achievement for them, particularly as they're currently being invaded, but I don't suppose their achievements in public life matter that much to you since you claim that:


And then abuse - consistent from you whenever you try to argue for argument's sake and then lose. About all that is consistent really.

Jon you are not making any sense at all, have you any idea how debate works? Let me explain.....

I say something you reply and so on, if there is something either person doesn't understand the other person explains. I have done that for you but you refuse to explain anything and also refuse to say which part you are having difficulty with. The point is to try and see the other persons point of view this part is difficult when you refuse to explain anything.

Instead of explaining you launch into rants about anything except the point being debated. It's not that you are making a new point to emphasise your existing point your approach is what can only be describes as a shotgun approach or totally unfocused.

Interesting to see you posting about the 2010 presidential election, Barney, is there any chance you can explain why you claim Turchynov stood in the 2010 presidential election and got one percent of the vote?

What's your explaination of it Harry ?

I'd like Barney to give his explanation, Johnny, about why he claims Turchynov stood in the 2010 presidential election and got one percent of the vote. I'll happily give my own explanation after he has.

I also like to know. I remember election here in 10:Turchynov was not.

Interesting that you see this as a "debate", rather than a message board and information sharing on matters relating to Poland. If you want debate, why not try a debating society somewhere?


Indeed. This is one very strange assertion that was made yet unfortunately the poster declines to confirm or to post any evidence that supports it. It's actually quite significant given the 'issues' Yanukovych had that led him to poison one opponent and falsely imprison another. I had a look at the election results and did not see that figure anywhere.Then again if


could it just be a lie?

Where were you looking at the results, Jon?

Earlier in the media and also the Ukraine Central Election Comission. Turchynov wasn't listed as a candidate at all so it's a bit of a mystery that anyone would not only say he was but also quote a result...

cvk.gov.ua/vp_2010

The results at Wikipedia also don't list Turchynov as a candidate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010#Results
I'm utterly baffled. What could explain this?

I'm utterly baffled. What could explain this?[/quote]
I think we should be told.

But hey,

Turchynov's Wikipedia bio makes no mention of a presidential election bid in 2010.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Turchynov

Given that at the time of the election he was a member of the party led by Yulia Timoshenko, it would have been odd for him to run against her. Given that he was deputy PM and she was PM, it would have been utterly bizarre!

where is your evidence of poisoning?maybe you provide any evidence of your claims yourself,before lecturing others..you demand solid evidence from others while posting nothing but gossips here

Yes. The assertion must have come from somewhere though. Perhaps it was a mistake with unfamiliar surnames or perhaps just it is (and this more likely) pulled from thin air.


thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2809%2960912-0/abstract

Maybe you think the study is

Jon, all assertions come from somewhere. Often erroneous statements are simply repeats of erroneous statements made elsewhere, for example a person could post here that Finland is in NATO and when asked about it say that they'd read that info on RT's website (as RT have in the past stated that Finland is in NATO). However, I can't find on Google any source which says that Turchynov stood in the 2010 presidential election, let alone one which says he got one percent of the vote.

err...couldn't see yanukowicz poisoning anyone in there.beside:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko
David Zhvania, a former political ally of Yushchenko and an ex-minister in the first Tymoshenko Government, claimed in an interview with the BBC[26] that Yushchenko had not been poisoned in 2004 and that laboratory results in the case had been falsified.

Yushchenko himself implicated David Zhvania, the godfather of one of his children, of involvement in his dioxin poisoning.
, Larysa Cherednichenko, former head of the department for supervision over investigations into criminal cases of the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office, said high-ranking officials from the presidential secretariat and family members of Yushchenko falsified evidence in his poisoning case.

where is evidence of yanukovicz involvement in poisoning people.....man,and you demand from people to give you evidences?

lol at those pathetic Kiev fanboys...is that your best argument for supporting unlawful removal of ukraine president?

There is a 100 word limit when copying and pasting from the internet

now lets wait for jolly,,,and his arguments,kinda" i heard from my neighbor who head from his neighbor,that janukovicz was eating children.

Well, gregy, I was actually going to agree with you with regards to the lack of evidence of Yanukovich's involvement in the poisoning of Yushchenko. However, seeing your very mature approach in post 3452, I will keep my opinion for myself.

There in plain English gregy, unless you prefer Wikipedia to The Lancet. Plenty of other sources to verify the poisoning.

That's going off the topic which is about Poland and the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's heartening to see the huge support in Poland for their neighbour.

alright..stillplenty of doubt regarding this incident,and who ws behind it if there was poisoning..

ok so they caught few Chechens responsible for killing B.Niemcov. it seems they are former Khadyrovcy soldiers,loyal to Moscow .
what would be their motive?or they were just paid assassins?

Merged: Wimpy West in a hopeless muddle?

The democratic West is for an open society but when dealing with dangerous dictators and despots one can overdo things. Stalin did not hold a press conference to announce plans to exterminate 22,000 officers at Katyń and other sites nor was the issue thrashed out in the Soviet parliament with reporters, photogs and cameramen getting down every word. And his successor, disciple and emulator Putin also did not put the Crimea land-grab up to a vote in the State Duma nor hold a presser to announce he was sending little green men with plenty of lethal hardware into Ukraine . He just did it and then stonewalled.

But The West, the EU and NATO including Poland, are p*ssyfooting about, debating whether to provide weapons to Ukraine to help them defend themselves and debating the issue in the media rather than just doing it, denying it and challenging Putin to prove it. Putin is clearly winning this hybrid war, and the West seems to be in a helpless muddle.

One should be kind to animals but when a rapid dog attacks you, there is no alternative but to shoot it dead!

When you talk of the West (the U.S.A.) and NATO who is the U.S.A.


Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
Why should the U.S.A. get dragged into a war with Russia then be called "war mongers" and bullies like always.
Why should the tax payers of the U.S. pick up the bill for another war that is no threat to them.
Why does the world count on the U.S.A. to be the policemen of the world then get bashed for it thanklessly, AGAIN.
Remember that the U.S.A. has a much bigger worry right now with IRAN developing an atomic grade weapon.
Why is not Ukraine asking China for weapons to help them ?
Right now Poland, the rest of Europe and Middle East should be more concerned about the up coming war with Iran & Russia's mushroom clouds.

Maybe that's why it seems the West is in a hopeless muddle p*ssyfooting.
Time the rest of Europe ponies up to help their neighbors.
Personally I am tired of being insulted every time America sacrifices their blood and resources for ungreatful people.
I can only imagine the schools, health care, poverty, ect. America could fix without having to spend BILLIONS protecting the podunk countries who resent the U.S.A. after America liberates them with their sons and daughters blood.

Maybe that's why all the muddling and p*ssyfooting.
What does America ever get in return besides abuse.

It is a very complicated picture.

Many Western leaders have been stunned by the speed of Russia's absorption of Crimea as well as protracted military involvement in Eastern Ukraine. But we can't forget that, rightly or wrongly, this came in response to the deposing of Wiktor Janukowycz (Viktor Yanukovych) which most Russian speakers in the region saw as a US-Nato plot. And in retrospect who can blame them for being suspicious? Soon after he was ousted stories became public of the American Vice President's son sitting on the corporate board of a company seeking to exploit oil shale gas in Ukraine. And then of course there is that now infamous leaked phone conversation from Victoria "F*ck the EU" Nuland strategizing on the replacement for Janukowycz.

Add to this concerns from the international business community. Sure sanctions have been slapped on Russia but they have responded in kind. Russia at one time was Poland's biggest export market for apples. But Russia has banned them along with Polish cheeses and other goods. It's not easy to find new markets particularly for produce items with a limited shelf life. I've come across articles about Poland asking America to import Polish products denied by Russia but haven't seen any progress on this effort. After all, the US has its own large apple producing sector and certainly has trade agreements already in place to import such items from other countries. Flooding the US or any other Allies's market with Polish goods is the last thing any domestic or international competitor wants to see happen.

And then there is Europe's ongoing reliance on Russia for gas. Some countries like Hungary, Romania and Italia are very reliant on Russia for their energy imports. Again, it is not easy to find quick alternatives especially after decades have passed where business with Russia was encouraged by the same Western government who now are at odds with Russia.

Then there are the concerns of the everyday man on the street. The public is well aware as well as weary the decades of upheaval, violence and wars often lead by the West in other corners of the world. No one wants to see anything like that flare up in Europe.

Many multicultural societies in the West no longer have either an interest or stomach for fighting for the countries they happen to reside in. Indeed, economic migrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asian (whether they have lived in Europe for years or just landed) have no interest in seeing Europe go up in flames while they are trying to earn a living. Genuine refugees who fled war ravaged lands certainly don't want Europe to turn into another battle ground which they just fled from. And given that many domestic young people in the EU have in the main avoided volunteering for military service (as well as coming from families who did as well) its clear they don't want to loose their lives especially in those European countries with high youth unemployment rates. Why would any young person want to die or be disabled for life fighting in a war for their countries when the governments (right and left) have done next to nothing to grow their economies and reduce crippling unemployment rates? Young people have also seen where intervention in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and increasingly Syria have only resulted in more death, destruction and chaos rather than peace, stability and prosperity.

Then of course there is the matter of the quite sizable Russian ethnic communities in several European countries particular Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It's clear they don't want to give Russia any excuse to intervene to protect the Russian diaspora. And it is very likely such Russian speaking minorities would protest (whether by choice or Russian manipulation) should the Western countries they reside decide to escalate tensions with Russia.

To be sure though Russia is feeling pressure from sanctions. But sanctions won't work in the long run. They never do. There are numerous examples of sanctions and embargoes placed on countries like Cuba, South Africa, Iran and North Korea. They have survived them for years largely because they usually find ways to circumvent them.

Considering that only a few years ago Ukraine wasn't a flashpoint then it is fair to say that all the upheaval going on isn't just coincidence. But for the West it doesn't look like it will go according to script due to the aforementioned reason.

General Orlov summed it up best back in 1983 regarding the West's great reluctance to take on Russia military:

youtu.be/x99njmZxaMA?t=2m18s

WHO would be left to use these weapons ?

Poroshenko advisor Yuri Biryukov boiled with anger over the high rates of draft-dodging in Western Ukraine. Citing high desertion rates in the country's Western-most regions, Biryukov noted that the type of pseudo-patriot that screams at the top of his lungs about his patriotism but refuses to join the fight "is a cowardly bastard -tail between his legs, hiding from the commissar, changing his phone number, gathering his belongings and running to Romania, Hungary, Slovakia or Poland."

Wait for the U.S. (NATO) to send 50,000 troops, Britain 300, France 100 and Poland 50 like always.
ENOUGH of this happy horse sh*t ! Keep on waiting Pal.

This can't make Putin happy;

Polish Military to Instruct Ukrainian Troops Under NATO Program
The Polish military will provide training to Ukrainian troops as part of the NATO program, Polish Foreign Minister Grzegorz Schetyna said Thursday.
Poland is not the only NATO country that intends to train Ukrainian troops.
In late February, UK Prime Minister David Cameron said that Britain would send military instructors to Ukraine to train local forces throughout March, developing an infantry training program with Ukraine.

Largely my feelings too, however free Europe is caught between a rock and a hard place with this one. A lot of watching and waiting. The sanctions are beginning to bite though and the Ukrainan army is at least being armed. Russia's sabre rattling with the fighter jets overflying the UK etc is obviously part of a wider strategy and we can be sure that the West has a strategy too. Right now non-escalation has to be a priority.


Small steps but positive ones and yes, Johnny, the Putinists won't be at all happy.

cant blame civilians who dont want to die i war representing Bursima interests.most of them never been in east ukraine..
i cannot imagine myself going to war,killing -lets say -Silesians if they decide they want independence...good riddance.. mad nationalism is completely alien feeling for me.glad to see many Ukrainians with reason.


i wonder what they gonna teach ukrainians troops? they are like 100 times more experienced than polish excuse of army.problem with ukra army is top incompetent generals and politically motivated strategy decisions..blunders like the one in debalcevo or donetsk airport.apart from that ukra soldiers are quite good,and very experienced after 1 year...polish military is one big joke

and why getting involved?


what?

It does not matter if it makes Putin happy or not. After almost 24 years, Russia needs to understand that Ukraine is an independent country. If it wants rub shoulders with NATO then so be it. It is none of Russia's business, no matter how much Putin's little head is boiling in anger.

Agreed, however I'd replace 24 years with 250 years!

Tell me this is not true ! Does not the UK have a National air space ?
They come within 15 miles of the U.S. they would disintergrate.
When Russia's long range bombers come within 40 miles of the United States borders they are 'gently' escorted back into international air space.
Russia has been testing our response time for years now.


Funny you said that as I was just thinking about that to myself.
I wondered how jon, Harry, Roger, Jolly, Wroclaw Boy would handle getting their draft notice to REPORT in 21 days.
Amazing what the military can do an 'attitude adjustment' on people concerning manners and respect.


And how do you think the U.S. soldiers felt at 18 years old right out of high school getting their draft notice to report to go to a POLITICAL WAR, that was no concern to these kids, in a jungle in Vietnam (half way around the world) where they were napalming innocent villages killing anything living in it not to mention the millions of gallons of agent orange dumped that to this day still is killing retired American soldiers from the after effects.

They left all the security that they had ever known, their teenage girlfriends, for their buddies that didn't get drafted, (that we called "Jody"), coming home after two years to pregnant girlfriends, watching body bags of kids coming home by the thousands, the ones that survived coming home hooked on heroin, no such thing as p.d.s. clinics back then, mentally fukced up to what they were ordered to do and what they saw.........shall I go on ?

Yeah Buddy, war is hell.
And the line that gets me the most is: WE should just go there and kick their ass once and for all.
My question to that is, "who is we" ?
Everyone on the Polish Forum can thank God and the United States soldier for the freedom's that they enjoy.


Smart words as the Russian citizens are now spending 60% of their income on food.
You can bet that they would love to have some sweet juicy apple's from Poland about right about now.
The Russian citizens can't be real happy with Putin right now.
And last but the BIGGEST is that if Russia, as an alie to Iran, is sucked into the war when Isreal blows up Iran and the U.S. gets sucked into it, as an alie to Isreal, and the other NATO countries gets sucked into it as alies to the U.S................. Ukraine is not going to be a priority in world news or deaths.

Are you ready to join up and go die for the freedoms of your country ?

Unfortunately, it's almost always the American presidents and their meddling poodles in Britain (and France) who tend to mess things up in the first place. Military families have always been and will always be convenient producers of cannon fodder.


GWB for example...