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Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it



gregy741
26 Mar 2015  #3301

man,,,i always knew that time will verify what a joke your Kiev fanboys are.and your beloved criminals and thieves.
all this BS,how bad yanukowich was,needed to be replace..lol
it was oligarch state before...now,its..pure criminal mafia state. kosovo,or some banana republic like ,criminal state..it was so predictable.
go,blame Russians now.what a farce

JollyRomek
26 Mar 2015  #3302

what a farce

The only farce is that you are continously throwing around terms for which you do not seem to know the meaning.

So was Yanukovych an Oligarch?

gregy741
26 Mar 2015  #3303

and ,you continuously making a farce of yourself..
if i were you,i would hide for a while,until this disgraceful story about your heroes disappear. ppl might forget,what a farce you made yourself talking about rightful removing of legitimate president cus he was corrupted and such.lol

compare to those thugs-your heroes ,yanukowich was like mother theresa

JollyRomek

yanukowitch-corrupted,free people rightfully replaced him with pro democratic,pro western,pro justice and peace government..
muahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

JollyRomek
26 Mar 2015  #3304

your heroes disappear

Another example of your imagination playing tricks on you. I have never, not once in this thread, said that I would see the new government as "my heroes".

ppl might forget,what a farce you made yourself talking about rightful removing of legitimate president

A democratically elected president only remains legitimate as long as he upholds the democratic values under which he was elected. I am sure that even you can understand that Yanukovych did the opposite with his latest move being the signing of the draconian laws.

However, you seem to be missing one point. Yanukovych left Kyiv. He fled his residence. How you can still maintain that he was removed is beyond me. The agreement that he and the opposition made included early presidential elections. It is Yanukovych's fault, and his fault alone, that he decided to flee instead. It was not the opposition who packed his bags. He packed them himself and left.

yanukowich was like mother theresa

I am sure he was to the people that benefitted from his power.

gregy741
26 Mar 2015  #3305

He fled his residence

he fled from bunch of thugs,who were paid $40 dollars a day for killing enforcement officers.

gregy741
26 Mar 2015  #3306

ohhh...all is in place...only one thing Ukraine needs now-grow some bananas.


  • hail king pornoshenko

johnny reb
26 Mar 2015  #3307

It is Yanukovych's fault, and his fault alone, that he decided to flee

Reading back in this thread makes it quite apparent that not EVERYONE agrees with your opinion.

JollyRomek
26 Mar 2015  #3308

EVERYONE agrees with your opinion.

You don't have to agree with my opinion, johnny. It does not matter what your opinion is . What matters is how your argue your case. A concept that you and gregy are seemingly unable to understand.

Crow
26 Mar 2015  #3309

What i want to know... how would world map look like in about 50 years, from the angle of this thread and having in mind `all` possible political games and variations of those games

Any idea? Anyone?

johnny reb
26 Mar 2015  #3310

how would world map look like in about 50 years

How about a One World Order ?
I just read this;
According to a Department of Defense press release, the Pentagon is sending 290 US service members into Ukraine to train Ukrainian military units in April. The training will reportedly occur in the Ukrainian city of Yavoriv near the Ukraine-Poland border. The US soldiers will be from the 173rd Airborne Brigade based in Vicenza, Italy.

As Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland herself pointed out before Congress, the US does not have a defense treaty with Ukraine making the act of sending in troops to train Ukraine forces seemingly inappropriate if not openly provocative to Russia. Or maybe that's the point?

Crow
27 Mar 2015  #3311

How about a One World Order ?

It depend on big businesses. It follows its own logic, don`t accept borders and creates political environment in accordance with its necessities.

Or maybe that's the point?

probably. And no matter rules of the game. i mean, no matter players act more independently and follow their specific interests or directly coordinate from phase to phase. In any case, i am sure that global rules exist. Bottom lines are known. Sometimes one side makes the first move, sometimes other but, ultimately, game as a whole leads to global government (ie global rules). Technical details (solutions) depend from the power (at the moment) of sides in the game. In the meanwhile, mass media plays by the interests of particular sides. That masks global rules of the game because it giving dynamics to the events, from the angle of particular interests. It has important role in giving sense of living to the populations, while in reality elites do have disputes of interests but, also coordinates knowing rules of the game/bottom lines.

But, have in mind. When we say `bottom line`, one can think that we point on `bottom line` of interests after which would some side use ultimate (nuclear) weapon. There is the trick. Yes, nuclear weapon exist as reality but, its not about nuclear weapon. It even isn`t in the game. `Bottom line` is margin of interests. Big magnates don`t even consider possibility of use of nuclear weapon. Why? Its not in their own interests. They rule in the game. Why would they destroy the game? Example... From the point of view of some USA magnate his biggest problem isn`t some Russian magnate (and vice versa). His biggest problem is his own USA population. He is in conflict with Russian magnate but, if dealing with Russian magnate `by the rules` he keeps control over the game and at the same time deals with USA population. From his point of view, he only care for his own power, to say- he only care that is he on the top of the pyramid of power within USA. Same thinks Russian magnate, Jewish, Chinese, German, Japanese, British, etc, etc. That`s the game. See, in reality of the game, `bottom line` isn`t line of interests that separate interests of USA and Russian magnate. `Bottom lines` are their own interests when they think of pyramid of power in their own realms. While USA and Russian magnate can be in real conflict over some zone of the world, they don`t focus to harm each others interests but to maximize its own profit. Same situation that generates conflict between magnates, provide them with opportunity to cooperate.

JollyRomek
27 Mar 2015  #3312

follow their specific interests or directly coordinate from phase to phase

It is absolutely no secret that the west has geopolitical interests in Ukraine. Same does Russia. But claiming that it was a "coup" instigated by the west to torpedo their interests in Ukraine is quite laughable.

The west has had that opportunity during and after the Orange Revolution in 2004 / 05 and did not use it. Anyone still thinking that they let the opportunity slip only to see a pro-Russian leader take over so that they can then "topple" him has to live in his very own and very special fantasy world.

Furthermore, claiming that the "coup" was instigated by the west is a massive slap in the face for the Ukrainian people. The fact is that Ukrainians simply have had enough of corruption, breach of human rights and police brutality. Those were the reasons for Euromaidan. If Ukrainians would have been happy under a democratic Yanukovych there would have been absolutely nothing the west could have done to "instigate" Euromaidan.

Crow
28 Mar 2015  #3313

JollyRomek

alright. No matter proportions of the game in Ukraine, i don`t see that you see ethnic Russians in Ukraine. You speak of Russia. You also using term pro-Russian but, you never used term- `local ethnic Russians in Ukraine` or `Russian people within Ukraine`. Don`t be confused that is the name of state Ukraine. That state is historically equally state of Ukrainians and Russians there. So, things are simple. No matter game behind all what happening, no matter what wants official Ukraine or Russia, local ethnic Russians there have right to say their word, same way as local ethnic Ukrainians have freedom to say what they want. Ethnic Russians there can do whatever they want with their land in situation when they see how Ukraine as state moving in direction where they don`t wish to go. Very simple.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3314

Ethnic Russians there can do whatever they want with their land in situation when they see how Ukraine as state moving in direction where they don`t wish to go.

If these ethnic Russians wish to be part of Russia, they can pack their bags and move to Russia. It is that simple. Donbass is part of Ukraine.

In Ukraine they have a saying "Suitcase - Station - Moscow".

Barney
28 Mar 2015  #3315

It's not everyday one sees a call for ethnic cleansing but there you go.

Most Ukrainian people, and yes that does include Russian speakers, were opposed to the coup but if they don't like it they can move to Moscow.

In Europe we have a saying "never again"

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3316

It's not everyday one sees a call for ethnic cleansing but there you go.

Ethnic cleansing? It has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. You may have noticed the people, mainly the elderly, shouting "Rossiya - Rossiya" on Donetsk's Lenin square. If they love Russia so much, they can move there. No point in shouting "Rossiya" on Ukrainian soil. I am not sure how this constitutes as "ethnic cleansing".

Barney
28 Mar 2015  #3317

Suitcase, station, Moscow....

Nothing to do with ethnic cleansing at all, of course you would graciously allow those people to stay in their family homes so long as they agree with you.

This is the crystallisation of the problems the coup produced, kiev made no effort to bring the majority of Ukrainians with them. They didn't go to the people with the austerity project about to be visited upon them, they grabbed power in a violent coup and imposed undemocratic measures. So we have some foreigner advocating removing people, deporting people cleansing people from their homes because they disagree with him.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3318

Barney "Suitcase - Station - Moscow" is a saying in Ukraine that has been around for a number of years. Stop talking about something you clearly have no clue about.

"The coup" - which coup? The opposition came to an agreement with Yanukovych. That he fled Kyiv the night after was his decision, and his decision alone. There was no violent removal. The president fled the country. Are you not able to understand that?

By the way, it was my Russian speaking friends in Donetsk who taught me "Suitcase - Station - Moscow".

Barney
28 Mar 2015  #3319

We have been over the coup lots of times and zero has been produced showing that his removal was legal. All we have is your insistence that it was within the law and nothing more.

Calling for ethnic cleansing is unacceptable no matter how you dress it up.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3320

Calling for ethnic cleansing is unacceptable no matter how you dress it up.

This is your interpretation of the saying. A clear sign that you simply have no idea what you are talking about. "Suitcase - Station - Moscow" does not call for ethnic cleansing or forced removal from someone's home. It is a saying that suggests that if they want to be part of Russia, they can just go and live there.

The fact that you interpret this saying as a call for ethnic cleansing is a clear sign that you have never been to Ukraine and take your "knowledge" about Ukraine from the media. If you would have any connection to Ukraine, you would know that this saying has nothing to do with calls for ethnic cleansing.

that his removal

Once again, you are missing the point that Yanukovych has fled Kyiv. He was not removed, he left himself. Do you want to dispute the fact that he has fled Kyiv?

Crow
28 Mar 2015  #3321

On the example of Ukraine we all learning that uni-polar world isn`t good. Its not good when that USA and west of Europe policing the world. We all need multi-polar world. We need real coexistence of people of Earth.

What is obvious, declared principles and values of EU are one thing. Reality is something else. EU is something wrong. And let me tell it in advance, to all who might try to manipulate here. Yes, Russia, China, some others also made and making mistakes. But, EU or NATO don`t giving solutions. EU and NATO are even bigger problems.

In Ukraine they have a saying "Suitcase - Station - Moscow".

If they have that saying, i hope that would justice win. Local ethnic Russians do have right to do what they want with their territories. But, it is then truly sad that Russia can`t do more for those people. What we see on the scene is genocide and ethnocide on Russians sponsored by NATO and EU leading powers.

"Suitcase - Station - Moscow"

what is interesting, neither local Serbians, neither state of Serbia had this kind of stance on Kosovo Albanians (who call themselves Shiftars). It was rather opposite. Albanians, national minority within Serbia, rebelled against Serbian state and used acts of terrorizem to achieve their goal- Greater Albania. Still, west of Europe and USA supported them and acted against Serbs and Serbian state. That is the world in which we live. World ruled by USA, Britain, France and Germany. Not for long, i sincerely hope.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3322

Local ethnic Russians do have right to do what they want with their territories.

I guess that the same rule applies to the Kosovo Albanians when they declared independence of Kosovo from Serbia? Or do these rules of self determination only apply when it suits you?

Crow
28 Mar 2015  #3323

Albanians aren`t natives on Kosovo. They populated Kosovo during Ottoman Turkish invasion on Serbians. With arrival of Turks Albanians immediately abandoned Christianity and accepted Islam and were fist of Turkish fight against Christian Serbs. Still, after Serbs liberated themselves from Turks (and from pro-Turkish Albanian terror) it was allowed to Albanians to stay and live on Kosovo. They lived better on Kosovo then in Albania. After the WWII, many Albanians came as refuges from Albania during totally fanatical and backward communist regime there. They got from Serbia their university on Kosovo, schools, right on use of their own language. In turn, they comkmited genocide on Serbs during WWII and later in 1980 (and after) rebelled against Serbian state, used terrorism to create Greater Albania. NATO and EU leading powers decided to support them against Serbian state.

Now, tell me how are local Russians similar to Albanians? Albanians don`t have right to take territories from Serbia. Russians do have right to do whatever they want with their own territories in what is today`s Ukraine.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3324

So i guess that would give Germany the right to anschluss Schlesien and Pommern again too?

Russians

You are mixing something up here, Crow. Ethnic Russians are a minority in Donbass. Ethnic Ukrainians make up the majority ethnic group in Donbass. Most of them might be Russian native speakers but that does not make them ethnic Russians.

Crow
28 Mar 2015  #3325

So i guess that would give Germany the right to anschluss Schlesien and Pommern again too?

Germany don`t have those rights. It lost those right committing repeated genocide over Slavs in process known as Drang Nach Osten. It would be good for Germany and Germanics not to try anything about their eastern borders. They done just enough of the evil. If they try it would come to them as boomerang.

You are mixing something up here, Crow. Ethnic Russians are a minority in Donbass. Ethnic Ukrainians make up the majority ethnic group in Donbass. Most of them might be Russian native speakers but that does not make them ethnic Russians.

i am clear. In any region in what is today`s Ukraine, people who don`t wish to live in Ukraine, have right to abandon Ukraine with their territories. Of course, if they are in majority on the local level on those territories. Yes, at the same time they even don`t need to be ethnic Russians. They could be just pro-Russian originated. Call it as you wish. If we were to go to the final extent of the situation and honest at the same time, they could also be ethnic Polish or Serbian. That if one want to drawn final borders of Ukraine.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3326

Yes, at the same time they even don`t need to be ethnic Russians.

So what you are saying is that even though the ethnic Russians are a minority in Donbass, they can just claim it as their territory, regardless of what the majority of ethnic Ukrainians in the region want?

That's interesting!

Barney
28 Mar 2015  #3327

If these ethnic Russians wish to be part of Russia, they can pack their bags and move to Russia. It is that simple.

That is a call for ethnic cleansing, its that simple and its unacceptable.

Some foreign, self appointed expert deciding who should leave Ukraine has got to be a joke.

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3328

It is not my saying, Barney, it is a saying that originated in Ukraine.

If you want to interpret it as a call for ethnic cleansing, fine by me. However, it just shows how little you know about Ukraine.

Barney
28 Mar 2015  #3329

I'm reading your words....

Are you now retracting those words and agreeing with civilised people that the people of Ukraine can say what they want without having to leave as you wrote above?

JollyRomek
28 Mar 2015  #3330

Are you now retracting those words

I am not retracting anything. I have said in post 3612 -

In Ukraine they have a saying "Suitcase - Station - Moscow".

- I think that it was pretty clear when i said "In Ukraine theyhave a saying" that those were not "my words".

How you interpret this saying is entirely up to you but please do not bore me with "call for ethnic cleansing" simply because you have never set foot into Ukraine and do not know any better.


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