Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

This is what people in Russia miss. Easy for them to blank out the Gulag and the other horrors - they've been doing that for years. Look at the Donbas - a mining region that had it even worse than South Yorkshire when capitalism came.

It's the people in Eastern Ukraine, whether Russia or Ukrainian, that I feel sorry for in all of this. For all Putin's crocodile tears, he doesn't give a flying **** about how many lives are destroyed.

No, I said that you need to visit Russia in order to at least get a little bit of understanding. It has nothing to do with "basic human behaviour". Normal and basic human behaviour would be to perhaps look back at the "good old times" but also condemn the current political leaders and fight for a better life.

That is completely different in Russia. Babushka in Omsk, who will most likely have one sack of potatoes and hardly any coal to get her through the next winter, yet she will keep adoring her god Putin. People are manipulated by constantly being reminded of the "glorious" times while the current issues are being blamed on the west for having destroyed the sacred Soviet Union.

While similar things also happen in central and western Europe, I mean diverting the public's attention from certain issues, Russia is taking it to a completely different level. And yes, it would help you to understand if you would visit Russia at least once. The manipulation of the people is present literally at almost every street corner.


It would be difficult for you to judge whether I am too young as I don't think I have mentioned my age on this forum. I do remember the GDR very well and I do recognize what you have said -


The sense of solidarity and unity originated out of the struggle that most common people shared in most eastern bloc countries. I can not see anything positive about it.


Yes and I am not saying that there were no positive aspects. But all the positive aspects were crushed by the negative aspects that came along with it i.e. complete and utter control of the population, hardly any freedom, no self-determination, a career that was chosen for you - you did not chose your career. Studies only for people who were system conform. There were simply too many negatives that outweigh the positives.


Well, compared to most other regions of Ukraine, Donbass was actually not doing too bad. In fact, the average salary in Donetsk Oblast was the second highest compared to other oblasts in the country. Only the people of Kyiv had a higher average salary but only in the city itself. The average salary in Kyiv oblast was lower than in Donetsk. Of course, that was before the conflict.


I would not blame Putin alone for the conflict in Donbass. There have been calls for independence of Donbass before although they quickly silenced and people just moved on with life. Splitting Donbass from Ukraine is not something Putin invented. But, he did not particularly do anything to prevent the conflict from escalating either.

regime in Kiev forbidding performance of Serbian musicians in Ukraine. At first, concerts of Goran Bregovic was forbidden and now concerts of Kusturica.

Considering great influence of the Serbs in Ukraine, regime in Kiev fears that would concerts of Serbian musicians initiate revolt against new Ukrainian authorities, what would lead to peaceful solution of Ukrainian-Russian conflict.

source: Kiev calls for ban of concert by Kusturica's band



Nemanja Emir Kusturica

The concert of Goran Bregovic in Kiev banned
latestnewsresource.com/en/news/kontsert-gorana-bregovicha-v-kieve-zapretili-iz-za-ego-vystuplenija-v-krymu

Goran Bregovic

You must understand that to Poles and Ukrainians Russia has always been the oppressor, the prime villain, the russifier, the tyrant who sent people to prison or Siberia, starved millions in Ukraine and created not one but many different Katyńs.

By contrast, to Serbians because of the Byzantine-Cyrillic connection and common anti-Turkish attitudes Russia is the "good guy".

Jak świat światem Polak z Moskalen nie będzie bratem!

Plus, Russian princes were initially involved in slave hunt of Russian and other Slavs.


Byzantine is young term, maximally 200 years old. Back in past Byzantine Empire was to Serbians know as simple `Romeya` (Eastern Roman Empire).

Plus, Serbians equally using Cyrillic and Latin alphabet, while Russians using only Cyrillic. Russians were always solely Orthodox, while Serbs initially were mostly Catholic and today are mostly Orthodox (ironically due to conflict of Catholic Serbs and Vatican because Vatican supported assimilation of Serbs).

Anyway, Poles and Russians helped to Serbs against invading Ottoman Turks and, being thankful to both (for many more reasons, too), we Serbs play role of their balancing point. We Serbs don`t expect that Russians and Poles love each others but, to respect decision of Serbs for peace between them. We Serbs need it and our word have to be respected. Very simple.


i Poljak i Rus ima da prestanu da se zajebavaju, kad mi Srbi to kažemo!

Dacic in Kiev: Minsk deal must be implemented in full

As soon as Der Führer Heil Putler pulls his troops and lethal hardware out of Donbas and lets Uktraine resolve their own conflict weapons will fall silent. But he is already trying some funny business from the Moldovan area against west Ukraine.

brate Poloniuse3, did you heard what said that Irish girl (or woman) in the other thread? move on, move on. Free yourself from little things. Think about bigger picture

as soon as they started mass murdering of russians living in their fake state,its not their "own conflict"
killing minorities with phosphorus is not their "own business"

Who started to mass murder anyone? Surely gregy, even you would be able to understand that the separatists had no right to take over cities, hold referendums and declare their own state on Ukrainian territory. It is perfectly normal that the only response to armed separatists is to bring in the army.

Interestingly though when you speak of mass murder, do you mean the separatists who murdered anyone who was against them and then tried to make them disappear in mass graves? Mass graves such as the ones that are still being discovered in Sloviansk and Kramatorsk?

Jolly, its not secret that EU/NATO leading powers pushed Ukraine in bloody Civil War. Its something normal for western European politicians to admit it. They generally call it a `mistake`. Before that they did same to Yugoslavia. `Mistaken`. Before that they `mistaken` all over the world and continuing to `mistake.

Considering how many `mistakes` they made, no wonder that they constantly expect others to `mistake`.

So, what you are saying is that it was EU / NATO leaders who convinced Yanukovich not to sign the association agreement which resulted in the first protests in Kyiv? And it was the EU / NATO leaders who then ordered the Berkut and Interior Ministry forces to forcefully disburse a peaceful gathering of students on 30.11. which lead to the mass protests which ultimately lead to Yanukovich fleeing Kyiv and later Ukraine?

You have a very vivid imagination.

Eventually it will come out that it was all planned out by the C.I.A. way before any of that ever happened. They are just itching for an excuse to go to war with Russia.

You believe that the USA is itching to destroy the planet in a thermonuclear war?

Jolly, would you then please, explain to me and to decent people of this valuable forum, what Mr Franco Frattini wanted to tell when he said that "EU must not repeat Ukraine mistake with Serbia".

Will you Jolly?

Here is citation of Mr Franco Frattini, internationally respected Italian politician, former minister of Foreign Affairs of Italy; who served as Vice President and European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security in the first Barroso Commission (2004-2008). He is currently President of the Italian Society for International Organization (SIOI).: "Also, under no circumstances should Brussels push Serbia to choose between the EU and Russia, considering Belgrade's warm relationship with Moscow. If Serbia is pushed too much or made to choose between its future EU membership and keeping warm relations with Russia, it could bring the country on the brink of a catastrophe, as it happened in Ukraine," Frattini argued.

Source: "EU must not repeat Ukraine mistake with Serbia"

Franco Frattini


me myself do believe that something went wrong with USA values and that one can expect everything. For sure it stays connected to the fact that world goes global, while USA magnates loosing control over the main money flow. So they now harry to secure their positions in a multi-polar world that is inevitable.

Also, let me tell this. i am not happy because i see USA on the wrong side in opposition to progressive humanity. Call me naive but i expected more from USA.

I don't really care what he said. What I do know however is that, from my 3 years of living in Ukraine, it did not take the EU or NATO to get people onto the streets of Kyiv. They were sick and tired of the regime and corruption. They didn't need EU or NATO, Yanukovich did it all himself. I have said it many times in this thread, familiarize yourself with the timeline of events of Euromaidan and you will see that no intervention by EU or NATO was needed to get people out on the streets.

Here are two clues. The night of 30.11.13 and the passing of the draconian laws on 16.01.14.

Essentially Yanukovich ousted himself by signing the draconian laws. At that time, things were calming down in Kyiv and people started to clear the streets. They only came back out, more than they did before, when he signed those laws essentially stripping Ukrainians of their last human rights.

You have two options Crow. You either educate yourself on the topic, particularly on the timeline of events of Euromaidan or you continue to rant about evil EU and NATO being to blame for the Ukrainian crisis.

Jolly, are you sure to whom you talk, to me or to Franco Frattini?

I would like to believe that I am talking to you Crow. That said, if you have a split personality and can not guarantee which of your personalities I am currently talking to then it is difficult to answer your question.

Did you read up on the timelines of events of Euromaidan yet or do you need a bit longer?

Point is that ethnic Russians within Ukraine didn`t take part in euromaiden events. Even all Ukrainians were not supporters of euromaiden. You know, Ukraine is a complex state. Two nations were born in Kiev. First Russian and then Ukrainian.

That is a lie Crow. There was even a Euromaidan protest held in Donetsk which had to have Shakhtar Ultras as security so they wouldn't be attacked. And even though a lot of the Shakhtar Ultras, many of which I know personally, consider themselves ethnic Russian they supported the idea of Euromaidan because they were also sick and tired of living in a police state full of corruption. So they stood in front of the Euromaidan protest in Donetsk to protect the protestor and enable them to make their voices heard.

You are spreading lies again Crow.

So i am a liar in your fantasia?

What is then Franco Frattini? Putin`s man?

Crow lying as usual, there were plenty of Russian even from Russia proper (yep they made the trip to Kiev) to support the Maidan protest. Even now there are a quite few Russian volunteers fighting on the side of Kiev in eastern Ukraine.

I do wonder what drives such pathological lairs to just keep at it... year after year...

In fact, Russia does not have enough money left to feed itself: on Wednesday, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev admitted that there was no money left in Russia's budget to support 94 so-called "crisis cities" dependent on single industries; about 19 million Russians live in these one-factory towns now without support programs.

Maybe the Kremlin should have thought a year ago whether Russia was prosperous enough for a foreign policy that leaves neighboring areas expecting support from Moscow.

"Very soon crowds of angry Russians will blame the Kremlin for annexing Crimea and backing Donbas while Russia itself is desperate and hungry," Timur Olevsky of Rain TV told The Daily Beast. "Under new regulations, Russian law enforcement will have a right to shoot at protesters," he suggested.

thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

So people, what Franco Frattini wanted to say when said: "EU must not repeat Ukraine mistake with Serbia". Where is the banana? Where was that `mistake` of EU in Ukraine? Jolly, Flagless, where?

Truly sad to see how people simple choosing sides in politics, relying on their prejudices, while in fact don`t know anything about politics, history or even reality.

So now, when i ask them, where is the banana of which Franco Frattini speak, where EU mistaken in Ukraine, there is no answer.

Fratini is not God. You can always find someone that will say something. Who knows on whose payroll he is?
The point is Russia cannot be treated with respect until it not only pulls out of Ukraine and returns Crimea, but starts de-colonialising at long last. Russia is oen of the world's last colonial powers that resues to give up its col,onies. All ethnically non-Russian nations of the Russian Federation including Chechnya should be given their full indepdnence and Russia should stop supporting break-away Russian puppet states in Georgia.

Even without those tsar- and Lenin-conquered territories, Russia will remain a huge country. And it will save loads of money by not having to bankroll armed-to-the-teeth garrisons to keep non-Russian nations in subjugation.

Polonius, are you insane? Chechnya would almost immediately become some Islamist hellhole if that happened - I don't agree with much of Russian foreign policy, but it's hard to dispute that the alternative to Russian rule there is another Somalia or worse.

If so, Russia would bear the brunt of any Chechen terrorism and that would keep Moscow in check.

You're actively supporting Islamist terrorism against Christians?

He's a no mark, a nothing, his claim to fame is being a government minister is arguably the most corrupt government in Europe.

In this case it could be called Realpolitik!
Besides, how could one justify liberating all of Russia's captive nations "except Chechnya"?

well, you are maybe right here.


my grandmother?


Putin`s? Good that Fratiini isn`t Pope Frattini or you would conclude that Putin controls Vatican.


e trt. Russia can be treated with respect same as Canada, Australia, USA, China, Britain, France or Germany, hypothetically. These are all conglomerate states. They have some original heritage but are multi-culti.


Russia wasn`t colonial power as west of Europe was.


more logical is secession of Texas from USA then Chechnya from Russia. At least Chechnya was part of Sarmatia Asiatica in past (Sarmatians = Slavs). Let newcomers Chechens learn to coexist with native Russians.


Russians are Russians. They know for themselves what is good to them. We Serbs meddling in their business only when comes to our own business with Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc.


True. That is also fact. Russians defend Europe, no matter every politics.


he is a person that is in international circles consider to be competent to talk about politics. You and me, Harry and, rest of us here are only guests on that field. But even so, i would expect that is one at least sane when talk about things. Do you feel sane Harry? i know that i am. i think.


Sure sure, Italians aren`t perfect.


so you are for quick solutions with Russians? Extermination? i mean, that`s exactly what happening to many of them in chaos of what is today`s Ukraine.

What's the Russian and Ukrainian body count in that conflict?