Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

On a lighter note, I thought the Juice Rap News did a fun job commenting the media coverage of the Crimean situation:
youtube.com/watch?v=zDIczjJRSic

And then threw out the Orange people and elected others who were removed in a coup, a coup with fascists in the vanguard.


The first unarmed uprising that managed to shoot dead several policemen.

The long and the short is that the Ukrainian budget is being set by thugs on the street and those who lost the last election.

If they wanted to sign agreements it may have been a good idea to stand for election first explaining exactly what the future holds for the population of Ukraine and hope to get elected on that economic platform.

..because those who "won" the election were so damn awesome at budgeting... their own palaces

youtube.com/embed/lRTp88CanVA

Corrupt as he is he still won the election which was accepted as fair.

You ever going to get tired of telling that lie Barney? If you aren't, could you perhaps tell us why you want to label the Afghan Muslim and the Ukrainian Jew who served in the Red Army 'fascists'? Those men lead the revolution, they were followed by other Jews, other Muslims, Anarchists, homosexuals, Russians, Belarusians, Armenians, Poles, etc. But to you the only people in the vanguard and in the leadership were fascists. And to you what the elected parliament votes for because the president has refused to sign what he agreed to sign is a 'coup'; clearly we have to add the word 'coup' to the list of words you don't understand (words such as 'terrorist').


Just because Russia Today says something does not automatically make it true. Just because the BBC says something does not automatically make it untrue. The truth is that the thugs in the street are not setting the Ukrainian budget, and they won't be, no matter how many times you lie about them setting it.


Yes, but the British government backs the current government of Ukraine, so which side are we going to find Barney on?

Removing a democratically elected president by non democratic means is the very definition of a coup, the fact that neo nazis were in the vanguard of the street violence has also passed you by. You never explained how the Goebbles research centre is not a neo nazi think tank now is your opportunity.

Those who lost the election have signed agreements before the election that is not exactly democratic is it.

If you are going to quote articles by Snyder and Harding it's good practice to link to the articles then we could discuss them

The president committed to sign certain documentation. The president instead fled to Crimea. As a result thereof the parliament voted to replace him and to take themselves the acts he had committed to take. Sorry that the truth does not suit the fiction you and Russia Today want the world to believe.


The fact is that neo-Nazis played a role as large of that played by Jews and homosexuals, i.e. some of the protesters were neo-Nazis, some were Jews and some were homosexuals (and others were anarchists and yet others were feminists); the Kremlin propaganda in Russia played up the involvement of homosexuals, while the Kremlin propaganda in Ukraine played up the Jewish involvement and the the Kremlin propaganda in the EU played up the neo-Nazi involvement.


If I was going to quote them, I would link to them. However, I haven't quoted from them, I've only referred to some of the same facts that they point out; would you like to lie about me quoting from them?

The president signed an agreement along with the opposition parties who then went to the mob led by fascists who rejected the agreement which included early elections. The president moved to avoid being lynched he did not step down if he did the paperwork would be produced. Perhaps you have seen the resignation letter, the only resignation letter I have seen was posted on line along with the negotiations leading to the resignation. The president didn't resign, the parliamentary vote was unconstitutional.

In other news It's good to see you finally admitting your basic error and admit that neo nazis were involved in the violent coup.

It's understandable that you didn't acknowledge your sources as you cherry picked the bits you agree with and ignored the rest.

If president runs from his own country, because he is afraid to be lynched, then he is not a president anymore. His fears have some reason behind them. If a president gives orders to kill its own people on the streets, he is not a president anymore. If the president brings the country to the total economic collapse, while amassing billions (part of which FlaglessPole presented to you), and this happens when he is controlling everything, from police to the parliament, he is not a president anymore. If the president changes the Constitution illegally, as Yanukovych did when he came to power, while the people didn't elect him under this new Constitution, but the old one, and he refused to be reelected again as is required when something like that happens, he is not a president anymore. If the president asks another country to invade his own country, so he could regain his fcking post, then he is not only not a president, but he is a traitor and should be hanged. Unfortunately, Ukraine doesn't have capital punishment and the scum will never be delivered by his Russian scum ally.

I know that what I wrote won't ever get into your head, because you have a clear agenda on this site (judging from your other posts), but I hope it will help to understand for someone willing and rationally thinking.


Gee, are you fcking serious?! Paperwork? Have you ever seen paperwork of resignation by the dictators? Youth nowadays... Unbelievable.

parliament voted to replace president..hahahahahaha..forget about impeachment procedure..just vote him out for going to Crimea,reasons??? ehh who need reasons?..hahahaha
this thread is getting low and pathetic

s.pikabu.ru/post_img/2013/10/17/0/1381955297_178899246.jpg

How many times are you going to tell that lie Barney? No matter how many times you and the rest of the Kremlin's mouthpieces tell it, it will not become true.


Just piling lie on top of lie on top of lie isn't going to make your lies in the slightest bit true Barney.


Kindly either quote a post in which I say that no neo-Nazis were involved in the revolution or withdraw and apologise for that particular one of your lies.

Kindly either quote a post in which I say that the revolution was a violent coup or withdraw and apologise for that particular one of your lies.

What did we just say about you piling lie upon lie upon lie?


Kindly either quote the parts of the articles you claim I have read which contradict my posts or withdraw and apologise for that particular one of your lies.

As it happens, your claim that Harding and Snyder were my sources is just another of your lies. I hadn't even read Harding's article "Kiev's protesters: Ukraine uprising was no neo-Nazi power-grab" until today (I went off the Guardian after the disgustingly triumphant and celebratory tone of many of their articles covering the death of Mrs Thatcher). If I had read it, I most certainly would have pointed out one of the bits of information that it contains, i.e. that one of the deputy prime minister in the new government is Jewish, to further nail your lie that the leaders of the new government are fascists as being just another one of your lies. Thanks for that, I entirely understand why you don't want to link to the article.

Dont be ridiculous, you may favour murder but it's illegal.

He had agreed with the opposition to hold early elections but the mob rejected this. Who was negotiating on behalf of the mob and what were the people who lost the last election doing when they had zero authority?

The simple fact is that he didnt resign and proper procedure was not followed. Putin now has Crimea and that is not going to change despite Tymoshenko wanting to murder millions of her country men. The agreements signed by the losers of the last election will stand despite no one voting for them.

Putin has annexed Crimea the new regime has signed agreements neither had authority for their actions.

Harry you are a very poor barrack room lawyer with reading comprehension problems.
You quote Snyder who in turn was referenced by Harding but dont reference your source or the context of either article that is dishonest.

The simple fact is that you have denied (until recently) any Neo Nazi influence in the coup indeed refusing to acknowledge a coup took place despite a clear inability to demonstrate due process.

Barney, you are liar and have been shown to be that many times over.


No I do not. If I had quoted Snyder, you would have already linked to the post(s) in which I did that: you haven't, because you can't, because you are very simply lying about me quoting from Synder.

However, I do congratulate you for your highly imaginative technique for dealing with the facts that both articles present. Instead of trying to address the gaping holes that both articles blow in the Kremlin lies that you parrot here (for example Harding points out that a Jewish deputy rime minister is part of a leadership that you claim is 'neo-Nazi'), you tell off-topic ad hom lies. Good skills sir! Or would you perhaps prefer to address the gaping holes that both articles blow in the Kremlin lies that you parrot here?


I asked you above either quote a post in which I say that no neo-Nazis were involved in the revolution or withdraw and apologise for that particular one of your lies. I note that instead of quoting me you have simply repeated (and refined) the lie. Should we conclude that you are simply going to go on telling that lie in the vain hope that repeatedly telling it will somehow make it true?

Harry you have managed many years ago to remove all meaning from your favourite slur. You would call a dementia sufferer a liar for forgetting their name.

Instead of discussing issues you just don't answer, for example how is it that far right groups posing with Nazi signs who named a think tank after Goebbels and repeat Nazi propaganda are not Neo Nazi. Typically you never answered that, you never answered when you claimed there was no UDI in Crimea which was incorrect or to use your debased slur a lie.

Your problem is that you are fundamentally dishonest in your attempts to play word games. It's a toss up whether your attempts to be a legal genius are worse than your attempts at mathematics. The net result is that you constantly drag threads off topic then whinge about the moderation.

And yet another lie from you. Are you actually trying to simply tell so many lies about me that people are distracted from the lies that you're telling about Ukraine?


Barney, the 'UDI' in Crimea was a farce. The criminals in the regime there seceded from Ukraine the day after the rigged referendum supported joining Russia. Crimea was 'independent' for a single day. You can parrot the Kremlin propaganda all you want but the simple fact is that the so-called UDI was nothing more than a farce designed to shield your Kremlin masters from charges of stealing Ukraine.


Yet more ad hom bollocks. How nice of you to underline the fact that you simply cannot address the facts which blow gaping holes in the Kremlin lies that you parrot here. Or is there any chance that you can tell us since when Jews, Roma anarchists and gays were neo-Nazis?

Yes it was a farce but you claimed it never happened and that by your loose definition makes you a liar. As I said you have debased the word so much it has become meaningless.

*Now as pointed out above*

You have yet again refused to answer the question and instead ask me to defend something that I never said so not really bollox at all. You do in fact refuse to answer direct questions and drag threads off topic.

I have been very clear that there are neo Nazis in this new regime not that all are neo nazis. I have also been clear that those in the vanguard of the violence were neo nazis. You have not explained why you think either point is incorrect; instead you have gone from talking about the euros to the IRA to allegations of anti British posts basically anything other than answer a simple question. Today the legality of the presidents removal came up so you started talking about anything other than why it was illegal. If you think the removal was legal it would be a good idea to state why rather than shout the tired old usual. It may also be good if you could answer why it's acceptable for this new regime to tie Ukraine into agreements before the elections, these were things being discussed before you jumped in with both feet.

I say there are neo Nazis in this new regime you say there is not, so lets see if you can answer a straight question; Why should far right nationalists promoting nazi propaganda posing with nazi symbols naming a think tank after Goebbels and the other stuff not be described as neo nazi? These people are in the new regime and an answer would advance the thread past this impasse

A country which declares independence after declaring it is going to join another country has not declared independence.


For example, you claimed "The source for that is an unnamed official in the defence ministry that is controlled by Fascist neo Nazis." The reality was that the acting minister of defense was of Roma origin, i.e. your statement was at odds with reality, i.e. it was a lie.


The reality is that those who died in the violence came from many groups. The first to physically defend the protesters were Ukrainian veterans of the Afghan war, some of whom were Jewish. But to you Jews are neo-Nazis (although to be fair, you also claim that anarchists are neo-Nazis, which very strongly suggests that you simply do not know what neo-Nazis are, or that you do know what neo-Nazis are and are just lying).


Your specific claims have included:
here "The source for that is an unnamed official in the defence ministry that is controlled by Fascist neo Nazis." A claim which has already been debunked above.

here "When judging neo nazi influence I look at the people in positions of power loads are fascists." So to you baptist preachers, Roma, Jews etc are facists. Really?

here "a coup which was led by neo nazi parties." See above and that thread for debunking.
here "It's not propaganda, Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries, the oligarchs who funded the coup have been appointed governors in the East." A claim debunked above and by both Snyder and Harding

Snyder
nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda
Harding
theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement

Shall I go on?
Yes, some of the people involved in the revolution were from the far right, but the lies you tell and which are quoted from above are not made true by that fact.

Harry nothing was debunked because I never claimed that everyone in the new regime were neo nazis that is in your imagination. I specifically said that the right sector and Freedom party were neo nazi plus the Former Freedom party founder Paribu (sp?) who is now a fatherland deputy. You are being dishonest about what I said for example the defence ministry was headed by Ihor Tenyukh a member of the neo nazi freedom party when I posted about that ministry. There is no point asking about things I never said.

What does need challenged is the politically motivated claim that the freedom party are not neo nazi; I dont see how these far right nationalists posing with nazi and white power symbols, whose members repeat nazi propaganda and formed think tanks named after goebbles etc cannot be described as neo nazis. The leading force in the violence was by common agreement the right sector who are more extreme than the members of the freedom party.

The Crimea did declare UDI you said it had not that is a lie by your silly definition.

Now you refuse yet again to address simple direct questions instead discussing things I never claimed, that is what you do as pointed out above. Are you ever going to answer a straight question? Are you ever going to explain the legal basis for the removal of the president or the motivation behind tying Ukraine into agreements before the elections?

You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries"

So let's have a look at who is who in the government
(dailykos.com/story/2014/02/28/1281080/-Ukraine-Forms-National-Unity-Interim-Government-Led-by-Arseniy-Yatsenuk-and-Coalition-of-Ministers)
and see how reality corresponds with your claims:
"Armed Forces" is the Minister of Defense, Ihor Tenyukh (Svoboda), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the justice party (who weren't neo-Nazis anyway) and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"National Security" would presumably be the Minister of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the justice party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Economy" would be Minister of Economic Development and Trade, Pavlo Sheremeta (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the justice party, and not from any party.

"Justice" would be Minister of Justice, Pavlo Petrenko (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the justice party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Education" would be Minister of Education and Science, Serhiy Kvit (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the justice party, and not from any party.

So in fact your lies have been very clearly and comprehensively debunked.


I do that very often. Are you ever going to stop lying?

Ihor Tenyukh was defence minister at time of posting (Svoboda)

Andriy Parubiy is National Security chief and co founder of Social-National Party of Ukraine the other founder was the leader of Svoboda the other founder is the leader of Svoboda

Oleh Makhnitskyi is the general prosecutor of Ukraine (Svoboda)

Andriy Mokhnyk is in charge of Ecology and Natural Resources of Ukraine (Svoboda)

Ihor Shvaika is the minister for Agrarian Policy and Food (Svoboda)

Oleksandr Sych one of the Vice Prime Ministers (Svoboda)

So you claim that Svoboda are not neo nazi despite members posing with nazi symbols, repeating Nazi propaganda and members naming a think tank after Goebbels etc. Members of this party are littered throughout this new regime there was the guy in charge of freedom of speech battering a TV guy for example.

Now would you answer the simple question that I have repeatedly asked, why are far right nationalists who pose with nazi and white power symbols who name think tanks after dead Nazis and describe the holocaust as the happy time not Neo Nazis? You have said above that Svoboda are not neo Nazi yet their members have done all those things plus repeated Nazi propaganda.

what we see is how magnates and bankers of this world dance over heads of Ukrainians.

Then, i see, Tzar is in the game, too

Nice visuals, however to my understanding psychedelics should be mind expanding... so how come is yours continuously contracting?

Here is how the Ukrainians and representatives of other nationalities and religions responded on March 9th, 2014 to the Jewish community in Kyiv:


Important to note. This is Barney's and some other posters' position:


Russia and its agent do their thing, but what is the reality:


theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/ukraine-faces-many-challenges-anti-semitism-is-not-one-of-them/article17720817/


Please, provide the link where Svoboda members described Holocaust as the happy time. They did had some runic symbols used by neo-Nazis elsewhere, which I think is wrong and shouldn't be done. Maybe, for that very reason they stopped its usage in 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

But anyhow, I insist on that link. Thank you in advance.

that is all BLA BLA, to say- govna

see,... you people didn`t listen to me. i nicely suggested formation of new Commonwealth on the base of original Pilsudski`s ideas, conglomerate that could include all nations between Baltic, Balkan and Black see and, deal with their specific interests. Now, with all those interests on the global market Tzar lost his nerves and we would eventually all live in one state but it won`t be Commonwealth. No. If you listened good old Pilsudski, there was chance for the Commonwealth, but no, people just don`t listen.

That is not correct I have no time for Putin or other corrupt politicians. I despise corrupt business men particularly those who corrode the democratic process. You and Harry have assumed a hell of a lot about what I have been saying, it appears that while accusing me of promulgating Russian state propaganda both of you have been deliberately turning a blind eye to the obvious. It is rather ironic that two ideologues are accusing me of being partisan while ignoring fascists.

Nathan I'll give you several links later to the descriptions and the Goebbels think tank plus the creation of the Ukrainian nazi party.



breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/10/29/Clinton-Ukraine-Tymoshenko-anti-Semitism


ucsj.org/2013/08/22/svoboda/

These links are not hard to find

This guy Yuri Mikhalchishin is an advisor to the party leader who has this to say about Jews and Black people.


foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government

I have no problem criticising these people because their values are not the same as mine. I do have a problem with people ignoring the obvious because they believe that the fascists are our fascists when there are no good fascists.

He's not a neo-Nazi (although do feel free to present any evidence you have that he is) and isn't from the right sector or the justice party. You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of the armed forces?


He is not National Security chief, he is the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine. The National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine is a body which advises the president. He is not in 'control of National Security'. Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of National Security?


He's not a neo-Nazi (although do feel free to present any evidence you have that he is), isn't from the right sector or the justice party and isn't in charge of the Justice ministry (the man in charge of the Justice ministry is Minister of Justice, Pavlo Petrenko (Batkivshchyna), who is also not a neo-Nazi and from neither the right sector nor the justice party; however, he is Makhnitskyi's boss). You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of the Justice ministry?


He's not a neo-Nazi (although do feel free to present any evidence you have that he is), isn't from the right sector or the justice party and isn't in control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education. You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of those ministries?


He's not a neo-Nazi (although do feel free to present any evidence you have that he is), isn't from the right sector or the justice party and isn't in control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education. You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of those ministries?


He isn't from the right sector or the justice party and isn't in control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education. You specifically said "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Are you now willing to admit that you were lying when you claimed that a neo-Nazi was in control of those ministries?


Jarek Kaczynski was in a government with people who were caught giving Heil Hitler salutes: do you want to claim that he's a neo-Nazi and that PiS is a neo-Nazi party?


Well, he got two out of three right there. I wonder why you still support the Ukraine leader of that Muscovite mafia as being the president of Ukraine.

As for Poland, the head of Radio Maryja is on record as saying "You know that it's about giving $65bn," to the Jews, they will come to you and say 'give me your coat. Take off your pants. Give me your shoes'." Are you going to claim that Radio Maryja is a neo-Nazi radio station?

all right mods... how much longer do we have to be subjected to this... he used to be permanently banned from here because of that... is there some sort of different definition of permanence widely used I don't know about..?

It's good to see that you don't consider people who name think tanks after nazis pose with Nazi symbols repeat nazi propaganda and describe the holocaust as a bright period as nazis.

That really is demented thinking, our nazis are better than your nazis, FFA get a sense of proportion and grow up.

If that statement is aimed at me, kindly either quoted from a post in which I say that people who name think tanks after nazis pose with Nazi symbols repeat nazi propaganda and describe the holocaust as a bright period are not Nazis.

You made very specific claims about control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education, i.e. that the people in charge of those were neo-nazis from certain parties. Unfortunately for you the reality is not as the Kremlin said it was. The reality is that none of those people are neo-nazis and none of them are from those parties.

I wonder why you don't want to address any of the questions which were put to you in my previous post.