Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Harry get a life, if you wish to play games we can continue once you have apologised for deliberately lying about Crimea and UDI.

Svoboda are a neo nazi party the leaders views I have quoted above. The members of this party did and are still doing the things I listed none of these people have been removed from the party which is not surprising as their views chime perfectly with the leaders and the party ethos. The party and it's members are nazis there is no point falsifying history because you want them to be something else. I certainly consider people naming a think tank after Goebbels as nazis, the guy who founded this think tank is still an advisor to the leader of the party that has supplied several ministers to this new regime.

This regime claims to be democratic but insisted on signing agreements that are going to fundamentally change the lives of ordinary Ukrainians. They did this before going to to the public which is hypocritical as one of their complaints about the removed president was that he signed a deal with Russia the public didn't want.

As I said this morning there are no good nazis and wishing Goebbels loving nazis away will not change the fact that they are nazis.

I take it from the way you first go with insults that you don't wish to address the disgraceful lies you told when you claimed that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries".


We clearly have different views on what a UDI is. To me a group of criminals issuing a declaration saying 'Yesterday our people [in a rigged referendum] voted to join Russia, today we're declaring that we're an independent state, even though we've already decided that we're joining Russia, and tomorrow we're joining Russia.' is not a declaration of independence, especially when the justification for it is a referendum which has very clearly been rigged. To the Kremlin it is a UDI, and strangely it is to you too.


Yawn. No it isn't Barney. Certainly some of the people who have at some times been members of the party or linked to the party are far right, some of them can even be described as neo-Nazis, but the party itself is not a neo-Nazi party. If it was, you'd have proved that to us. Instead all you can do is to lie about "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education" and claim that a man who advises the president is the "National Security chief". Pretty pathetic really.

Harry get a life, its clear from the post you trolled up that I meant the right sector and the freedom party (svoboda), the reporting at the time had included Yarosh from (right sector) as deputy to Parubiy both nazis, Yarosh was never confirmed but had been involved in the negotiations for the new regime as were those who funded the violence.

My point was and is that those two organisations are neo nazi for the reasons I have outlined many times. Svoboda have several ministers in the new regime and they are neo nazi for reasons outlined. You dont consider them neo nazi for some mad reason but any reasonable person would consider a party led by an anti semitic racist and national supremacist to be neo nazi, particularly when the said party contains people glorifying the nazis. You may like that behaviour but I consider it wrong and don't believe that Nazis should be anywhere near government.

You may wish them to be something else but they remain nazis

Now your direct lie about Crimea are you going to apologise or continue lying about it or try and change the meaning of words?

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26849934
"A Ukrainian far-right leader accidentally shot and killed himself during a shoot-out with police last month, an investigation has concluded. mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/uk/publish/article/1014205 The inquiry by the interior ministry said Oleksandr Muzychko, aka Sashko Bily, had shot himself in the heart as police tried to wrestle him to the ground during the chase."

Nothing to see here, folks. Just another person the new government doesn't want around went and killed himself out of spite. Spiteful foockers, aren't they?

"This week, the pro-Kremlin Izvestia newspaper published Migranyan's article attacking Professor Andrei Zubov, a prominent and well-respected Russian historian, who, in his recent op-ed in Vedomosti, drew direct parallels between Putin's annexation of Crimea and Adolf Hitler's Anschluss of Austria and annexation of Czechoslovakia's Sudetenland and Lithuania's Klaipeda region in 1938-1939. For his views, Zubov was promptly fired from his job at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations.

another excellent read:

"But those tactical gains are likely to evaporate soon. Already, the anti-Putin demonstrators have outnumbered their pro-regime counterparts on the streets of Moscow, despite the risks of speaking out. Already, dissident intellectuals are drawing a clear distinction between how they see the country's interests and the Putin regime's aggressive actions. The fact that they are clearly in the minority now should be no comfort to the Kremlin.

from the same article, too good not to post it:

"To avoid that kind of outcome, he is intent on making sure that Ukraine's new democratic government fails, discrediting the whole notion of popular movements. That is his real motive, not any vision of patriotism. To that end, he could invade the eastern part of the country. But it may be enough for him to create enough uncertainty about his intentions to keep Ukraine permanently on edge, not allowing the situation to stabilize and its new leaders to succeed.

A true Russian patriot and Slavic brother would see the world differently. He would welcome the rapid development of a democratic, prosperous Ukraine. He would see it as a positive model for a Russia that could live in peace with its neighbors, and that could nurture the conditions for new economic growth based on deepening rather than dwindling ties with the outside world.

In the hands of a true national leader, patriotism can be a powerful constructive force. But all too often, as Samuel Johnson famously pointed out, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Russia now has its scoundrel, fully exposed."

US War Plan for Europe and Russia

By Finian Cunningham March 31, 2014

"The US is prepared to plunge Europe into a war with Russia in order for Washington to preserve its hegemony over the transatlantic axis. he told us earlier in the week. The key issues are the prevention of Russia and Europe developing closer trade and political ties - stemming primarily from a vast trade in energy fuels; and, secondly, the survival of the American dollar as the world's reserve currency

So vital are these issues for continued American hegemony that Washington is prepared to sacrifice millions of lives in a war between Russia and its so-called transatlantic European "ally".

This shocking revelation comes from a former European NATO commander. According to Christof Lehmann, editor of the news and analysis website nsnbc international, the European military officer was given the grim warning by American counterparts in an off-the-record briefing.

informationclearinghouse.info/article38107.htm#.UzuclMBsliQ.reddit

For Putin Russia it is important to destroy everything around in order to sell its own crappy economical and barbaric political state as somehow "advanced" and "better-off than the rest". The polls show that 70% of the Russians buy it. They think that by the invasion of foreign lands their lives will improve or they will be very important in the world. Sad case.

Isn't that what the US have been doing for decades?


I agree.

What do you want to say by this? I have always wondered about the tendency by some to switch to US as soon as something true is said about Russia. Why not clearly state your position?

There are plenty of people like that. I could be bashing US all day long, which I often do and with a good reason. Unfortunately for some this is just a case of 'enemy of my enemy...' or just a simple-minded 'oh he(Putin) told the US off, so he must be cool' without bothering to look closely at the matter at hand.

It's clear enough: why criticize and even punish Russia for things that the US (the other superpower, or actually the only real superpower) always do?

Obama was among the first world leaders to severly criticize Putin for "breaking International Law". When the US have been breaking International Law for a very long time, many times, and still unpunished. As they too have a long history of invading countries for no (valid) reason.

You're missing the point of this thread. Say, hypothetically, I were to live my live again and somehow could choose where I was to be born, Russian-run Ukraine would be down at the bottom of my list together with Zimbabwe and the like, and this is the crux of the matter here and not wether US should be punished for its transgressions.

Indepedent Ukraine with strong US and EU ties, clearly, would have been a better outcome of one's birth lottery.

In Latvia and Estonia, both with siginficant Russian minorities, only 5% of Russians want to be united with Mother Russia. 95% of them don't want to have anything to do with Putin's Russia, having lived in a normal country.

You mean another Greece?
'Independent' is almost an insult in that case.
Especially if the US and EU pushed some far right nationalists to make a coup d'état (as it happened in the past in other parts of the world).

I heard Western multinationals have already started to invade Ukraine. For sure, this independend Ukraine is all good, for them.
I'm almost happy with Crimea going back to Russia with no bloodshed.

Sorry, but this is a very dumb reasoning. I support the punishment of ALL countries who violate the international law. But if the US wasn't punished for its action, it doesn't mean that Russia shouldn't be criticized or punished. Or do you think that we just all start to violate the international law and find excuses in US or anyone who wasn't punished for their wrongdoings? This is childish "he hit me first" reasoning.


No, he means another Poland.


Easy to say by someone living in Europe, isn't it? Move to Russia and then try to write the same thing, Einstein.


Of course, you are. You wouldn't care of the Tatars, Ukrainians, both Ukrainian and Russian-speaking who had to send their kids and wives to the continental Ukraine to save them from the barbarism which now starts against those who refuse to accept Russian passports. You wouldn't care that this land becomes an internationally unrecognized territory that will be isolated and live like people live in Abkhasia and South Ossetia, taken from Georgia by the same Russians or Transnistria from Moldova - same Russians. Bloodshed? The Ukrainian government was willing rather to lose the territory, then to have its civilians killed. But why would you care? You better live in the EU and kiss the aggressor's as* at a distance like a true warrior. Good luck!

So do I. But it seems that some never get punished for their wrongdoings. How come?


Yeah, Poland is so independent that it needs to be 'rescued' by NATO/US everytime Putin farts. (sorry for the bad sense of humour, my head hurts a bit tonight)


Talking about childish reasoning.


Kosovo?


The current pseudo-government? The one that spilled Ukrainian blood on the streets of Kiev?


I'm kinda forced to kiss other agressors' ***es unfortunately.
Nothing is all white or all black.
I'm neutral anyway. The world is not.

hmmm let me think... tricky, would I rather be born in Athens or in Minsk... hmmm... (sarcasm strongly implied)

.. and I yes I do know Minsk is in Belorussia, another example of post soviet ********

Ask yourself the question, honestly.
Ok, Athens is sunnier, but still... ;)


If Stalinism failed, it doesn't mean that capitalism (neoliberalism) is perfect, right?
That's all I want to say.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TM7ZBoGF_n8

Phase II already underway.

Meanwhile in Serbia...

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C7uCGhdCWa4
Crvena Zvezda (Serbia) vs. Budiveljnik (Ukraine) 79:70
EuroCup Quarterfinal

I take it from the way you first go with insults that you don't wish to address the disgraceful lies you told when you claimed that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries".


Let's say that that claim is true, let's say that you did mean the Freedom party and not the Justice party: even if we do that your statement "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries" is still just a lie.

"National Security" would presumably be the Minister of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Economy" would be Minister of Economic Development and Trade, Pavlo Sheremeta (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.

"Justice" would be Minister of Justice, Pavlo Petrenko (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Education" would be Minister of Education and Science, Serhiy Kvit (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.


Given that you've already been caught lying about Parubiy, why should we believe your when you claim that he is a Nazi? Perhaps you'd like to also like to tell us the Kremlin's lie about how Parubiy was the man in charge of the snipers who murdered protesters?

Harry telling you to grow up is not an insult it's a piece of advice which you would do well to follow.

If you want to play silly word games why not apologise for lying about Crimea and the UDI. You are not going to do that you prefer to lie about the meaning of UDI and making up your own definitions.

Whatever childish straw you are clutching doesn't remove the fact that Svoboda are a fascist party a party that you are doing your best to white wash, do you really want to spend your time facilitating holocaust deniers?

You may think that being a far right national supremacist, posing with Nazi symbols, repeating Nazi propaganda, glorifying Nazi leaders and the holocaust is fine and part of the normal democratic process but all right thinking people don't.

It's a bit rich that you are doing your best to conceal/explain the activities of neo Nazis yet accuse me of repeating Kremlin propaganda.

UDI = Unilateral Declaration of Independence.
Saying 'We're joining another country' is not a declaration of independence; it is a declaration that one does not want to be independent.


You can call them straws; however, everybody else can see that your claim that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". is clearly shown to be a lie by looking at who is actually in charge of those ministries and which parties they are from:

"National Security" would presumably be the Minister of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Economy" would be Minister of Economic Development and Trade, Pavlo Sheremeta (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.

"Justice" would be Minister of Justice, Pavlo Petrenko (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Education" would be Minister of Education and Science, Serhiy Kvit (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.

Perhaps you should consider checking factual reality before blindly parroting Kremlin propaganda?

Harry, Ah more lies, Crimea declared UDI the Ukrainian court quite rightly declared the declaration unconstitutional.
nrcu.gov.ua/en/148/559736

Now by your silly standard you are piling lie upon lie.
Lying your way out of lying wont change your lie it's still a lie.

Are you ever going to answer the question posed about far right nationalists and their defining words and deeds or continue to excuse and facilitate a bunch of nazis?

You are probably unaware that reporting at the time I posted was in flux, the Nazi Yarosh was offered a position but never confirmed, in fact the appointment process for the new regime was anything but transparent. Yarosh is still quoted as being Paruby's deputy is most media. What we do know about the violence is that the vanguard was led by the fascists in Right sector and as Snyder admits the youth of Svboda, those who benefited were the opposition parties including neo nazis and those who funded the violence.

My central point denied by you, is that there are neo nazis in this new regime you have yet to explain why they should not be described as neo nazis given the nazi propaganda etc they repeat.

Oh dear, poor Barney, shown to be a liar by the link he provided himself:


Following that resolution, but before any declaration, the criminals who had appointed themselves as leaders of Crimea announced that Crimea would join Russia. But Barney wants us to believe the Kremlin's fiction that saying 'We're joining another country' is a declaration of independence!


That's your central point now that your previous point, i.e. that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries" has been clearly shown to be a lie. Are you ever going to apologise for trying to tell us that lie (amongst all your others).

You are being ridiculous, Crimea declared UDI it doesn't matter what they do with it they declared it you said they didn't so by your silly rule you are gushing lies. Believe it or not you don't get to change meanings to suit yourself.

Once independent they can do whatever they want despite what you think.

My point has always been that there were neo nazis in this new regime something you have consistently lied while coincidentally refusing to explain why neo nazis are not neo nazis. Instead of explaining why a bunch of Goebbels worshiping fascists are not nazis you chose to go around the world arguing and spitting venom about anything except the central point.

I repeat, the reporting on this new regime was as murky as the horse trading that formed it but feel free to yet again troll up any old post stripped of context.

The criminals who appointed themselves as leaders of Crimea stated that they were going to join Russia: that is not a declaration of independence. The 'UDI' is just a fig leaf to try and shield Russia from legal action by Ukraine for stealing Crimea.


No, your point was that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education"; however, that statement has now been exposed as a lie.


Kindly either quote from a post in which I deny that any neo-Nazis have been involved in the revolution or the new government or withdraw and apologise for your latest lie.

Jesus!!!
Crimea made a UDI full stop. You said they did not that is a lie and no matter how many times you repeat it it will remain a lie. It doesn't matter why the UDI was made just that it was made and by your ridiculous standards denying it makes you a lying liar. You deliberately lied about Crimea and it's declaration...........

You see how boring it is to use the liar liar pants on fire argument.

No, my point from go on these threads has been to point out that neo nazis are included in the violence and were included in the new regime after the nazi led coup. You argued that far right nationalists may have been involved not neo nazis. I have been asking why far right nationalists with all the well known deeds and words can not be described as neo nazis and you refuse to answer. The only conclusion is that you would like to ignore and lie about the true nature of these thugs.

You can argue about everything under the sun avoiding a simple question even trolling more old posts in order to find something to argue about rather than answering but it would be better if you could explain your reasons for denying the obvious.

"But it is high time for Germany to abandon that prism, because it is not only the territorial integrity of Ukraine that is at stake. Such an approach amounts to legitimating Putinism-that perplexing combination of nineteenth-century nationalism, Orthodox Christianity, Putin's KGB past, and a hankering after Russia's lost empire."

full:

carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=55260

I find it hard to believe that Poland still hasn't started a draft with the Russian Bear on their doorstep. Ridiculous!

NATO doesn't have the ground troops to oppose the Russians, Poland and the Baltic States are going to have to provide the ground troops.

A statement that 'We're going to join another country' is not a declaration of independence. And it never will be, no matter how much your propaganda masters in the Kremlin want it to be one.


If you find it boring, just stop lying, then I won't be able to point out your lies.


And there you go again, parroting Kremlin lies that the regime change was led by Nazis. How many times are you going to repeat that lie even after it has been so utterly nailed? But I am more than happy to repeat this one more time: your claim that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". is clearly shown to be a lie by looking at who is actually in charge of those ministries and which parties they are from:

"National Security" would presumably be the Minister of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Economy" would be Minister of Economic Development and Trade, Pavlo Sheremeta (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.

"Justice" would be Minister of Justice, Pavlo Petrenko (Batkivshchyna), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from a neo-Nazi party.

"Education" would be Minister of Education and Science, Serhiy Kvit (No party affiliation), not a neo-Nazi, from neither the right sector nor the Freedom party, and not from any party.


Kindly either quote from a post in which I state that no neo-Nazis were involved in the revolution or withdraw and apologise for your latest lie.


It would be better still if you could be so kind as to quote from a post in which I state that no neo-Nazis were involved in the revolution or withdraw and apologise for your latest lie.

I would say that you were a funny guy if you were not the most boring person it has been my misfortune to meet....

Crimea made a UDI and all the lying in the world won't change that, you obviously feel uncomfortable with that fact so decided to lie about it.


Harry, once the bin is emptied or posts edited you deny posting material. You did it when you accused me (or Smurf) of posting pro IRA material which of course was a lie that you finally admitted to after several torturous evasive posts. You did the same after you threatened Darius' daughter having first cyber stalked her and posted her details here. You also selectively edit quotes to distort what people say.

You are now denying having posted that far right nationalists are far right nationalists and neo Nazis are neo nazis because you can't answer a simple question why can far right nationalists not be described as neo nazi when they glorify Goebbels describe the holocaust as a bright period etc. I know its because you see these fascists as your fascists and are prepared to turn a blind eye to them.

What you are asking for is wholly dishonest and demonstrates the mind set of an adolescent.