Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Clearly you having trouble understanding what the word 'independence' means. Let me make it crystal clear for you: a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country is not a declaration of independence. It really is that simple. The only people who argue that there was a UDI are the same people who argue that there were no Russian troops in Crimea before Crimea joined Russia and that Russia has not breached the terms of the Budapest Memorandum, i.e. the same people who parrot the Kremlin lie that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education", i.e. people such as you.


What an excellent lie Barney! Well done. Sadly for you, as the PF search engine shows, my posts about neio-Nazis were not binned. So, yet again, you're a busted flush.


You do post pro-IRA material here, for example your claims that the British army planted car bombs and bombed pubs.


That's a very clear lie Barney: if I had posted her details here, I'd have been permanently banned. I'm not permanently banned and thus your lie is exposed as a lie.


Am I? Do feel very free to either quote from the post in which I deny having said that or withdraw and apologise for your latest lie.


And back we go to your lie about my friends in Kiev being neo-Nazis. It really is a pity that you never come to this part of the world: I'd pay good money to see you call my friends in Kiev neo-Nazis.

Its a simple question did Crimea make a UDI the answer is yes they did and no amount of lying will change that.

I note that again you can't answer a simple question....

In what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence?

Other of course than the obvious one, i.e. it is a UDI only in the sense that it gives Putin a figleaf to hide behind while claiming that Russia has not violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum.


If you make a simple apology for your lies here (and withdraw the ones you have told about me), I'll answer your question.

At last, you admit there was a UDI so all that nonsense for nothing.

No I don't: a statement title "Declaration of independence" may have been issued but it was not a UDI. Perhaps you'd like to try debating against what I do say rather than trying to argue with what I don't say?

The old ones are the best...

You are denying that UDI was declared? Fine stay in that mad world however you dont get to define UDI or what people do with it once declared but declared it was.

As posted above (and ignored by you twice): in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence?

So you are saying that UDI was not declared?

UDI was declared lying about it doesn't change the fact it was declared.

Why are you asking that again? I've already stated above at least four times that a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country is not a declaration of independence. Or at least it isn't to anybody who actually understands what the word 'independence' means.


I note that for the third post in a row you have ignored the very obvious question: clearly you refuse to answer it because you can no more answer it than you can answer the question of why you lied about "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". But anyway I'll ask it again: in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence?

Harry denying that something happened because you don't agree with it is mad. I don't agree with partition that's what imperialists do, but they did make a UDI there is no point lying about it.

I note that for the fourth post in a row you have ignored the very obvious question, but anyway I'll ask it again: in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence?

"According to Ukraine state security, Bahtiyarov is part of a large wave of Russian spies and operatives who have been flooding into the country before crucial presidential elections on May 25. Bahtiyarov's people supposedly were promised $500 each. He was going to supply the equipment his group needed-wooden bats, Molotov cocktails and telescoping ladders-for use in storming the buildings.

The mastermind also arranged, with some Russian TV channels, to film the incident, which would then be blamed on Ukrainian radicals. The Kremlin is always looking to prove the government in Kiev is controlled by extremists or in the midst of chaos or both and therefore has no right to organize elections. This violent operation would have fed right into its propaganda machine. If Russian President Vladimir Putin's prophecies don't fulfill themselves, it seems, his people will fix it so they do."

full
thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/02/alexander-dugin-the-crazy-ideologue-of-the-new-russian-empire.html

It somehow was good enough for Kosovo. lol.

Call it one of the benefits of surviving attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing.

How many times have you ignored the very simple question I asked? Of course you are free to evade the question yet again.

You don't get to dictate what people post and you don't get to dictate what is and isn't a UDI that is Megalomania.

The people in charge of Crimea had as much legitimacy as the Junta in Kiev currently have in that neither has or had a democratic mandate. Their (Crimea's leaders) declaration was made that is fact what they did with their independence is unimportant to the factual point that the declaration was made.

It's a lie to say it wasn't made.

Because it's irrelevant to your lies here and to the topic.


And you don't get to dictate what the word 'independence' means. But then you know that, which is why you refuse to tell us in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence.

My question is very relevant to the thread topic, I clearly said that neo nazis were involved in the coup and the new regime. You said it was a piece of Kremlin propaganda and a lie.

After posting links describing members of this new regime as far right nationalists and other links showing the same organisations repeating nazi propaganda, posing with nazi stuff, the Goebbels stuff and the holocaust stuff. I asked why they shouldn't be described as neo nazis and you never answered. That is relevant to the topic.

What you did instead of answering was to argue about everything except the Ukraine in short you threw a hissy fit.

Denying a UDI was made in Crimea is just mad, only bettered by attempting to twist the meaning of words like a third rate trainee barrister. They declared independence what part of that do you not understand? It's not a difficult concept the fact they later joined Russia is irrelevant to the UDI. You lied about the declaration and are now arguing that black is white.

Would you care to quote me saying that no neo-Nazis were involved in the coup? I seem to recall saying that some of the protesters were neo-Nazis, some were Jews and some were homosexuals (and others were anarchists and yet others were feminists); the Kremlin propaganda in Russia played up the involvement of homosexuals, while the Kremlin propaganda in Ukraine played up the Jewish involvement and the the Kremlin propaganda in the EU played up the neo-Nazi involvement.


And there is the problem: you say that all people who belong to organisations are the same as other people who belong to it. And you then go on to make the leap of 'logic' from saying that because some people associated with some parties are at best somewhat dodgy, all people associated with that organisation must be neo-Nazis. And from there you lead into lies such as "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education".


And there's your problem: they had already declared that they were joining Russia before they declared 'independence'. But then you knew that, which is why you refuse to tell us in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence.

Twist all you want Harry you lied about UDI and also you don't get to define meanings to make your lies true.

You described the fact that neo nazis were in the vanguard of the violence and in the new regime as kremlin lies when both things are true.

A political party and their street thugs (see Snyder) both described as far right nationalists displayed nazi symbols, behaviour which is clearly acceptable to the party leadership, given the lack of people disciplined. A party with advisors to the leadership who describe the holocaust as a bright period is not neo nazi? A party with advisors who venerate the Nazi leader Goebbels in not a neo nazi party? A party which is led by someone making antisemitism and anti Russian statements is not neo nazi?

All these things happened in the same party, no one was disciplined or expelled for crossing the line of decency, the party is well known and attracts exactly the type of people it wants. Yes it is fair to label that party a neo nazi party, it's not a problem for me as I don't support nazi parties. They should not be anywhere near government but have to be because their people were at the forefront of the coup along with other avowed fascists.

Refusing to answer a simple question because you say it's off topic is a lie the question is very much on topic and you still have not answered it.

I don't need to answer anything or define anything, the people in Crimea made a UDI the Ukrainian court system recognised that they did declaring it unconstitutional, it's been widely reported on but you painted yourself into a corner with your childish liar liar pants on fire argument so you must redefine UDI.

Soooo.. the question in my mind that is still unanswered is: which situation would be most advantagous to Ukrainians, strictly from the economic point of view?

Kosovo wasn't annexed by another country after separating. It was also recognised by most of the world.

Crimea is, according to the UN and all international organisations, legally still part of Ukraine.

Statehood, independence etc only becomes valid through international recognition and the UN vote rejected Russia's claim

Why Poland Loves Ukraine ... For Now

"Not only is there a lot to lose, but there is also more to gain than ever in our modern history. If Ukraine survives in its current shape (even without Crimea) and enters a path similar to that followed by Poland, the human and economic potential of both countries, strengthened by ad hoc alliances within the European Union, will allow the realization of Poland's historical dream to balance Russia's role in the region and ensure a significant position for Eastern Europe within the West."


from the same article, kinda answers your question:

"The swirl of opinions, analyses and interests can be bewildering, especially in contrast to an essentially simple calculation by Russia. Unlike the West, it values geopolitical expansion, not economic conditions. Otherwise, Russia would invest the money it earns from oil and gas in economic development, and not in its military, which according to projected spending will account for well over a quarter of the national budget by 2015."

ooops forgot to add the link to that article mentioned in my post above:

nytimes.com/2014/03/29/opinion/sierakowski-why-poland-loves-ukraine-for-now.html

Give up Barney, I exposed your lies about "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries". Just trying to insist that I lied about there being a declaration of independence won't make your lies any less untrue or make the 'UDI' any more of a declaration of independence.


The only people who claim that a statement that 'We're joining another country' is in any way a declaration of independence are the same people who claim that that there were no Russian troops in Crimea before Crimea joined Russia, that the referendum was not fixed and that Russia has not breached the terms of the Budapest Memorandum, i.e. the same people who parrot the Kremlin lie that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education", i.e. people such as you.


The answer to that is very very clear: Ukrainians would be far better off getting rid of Crimea and the eastern bits of Ukraine.


worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/should-there-be-one-ukraine

foreignaffairs.com/articles/141020/alexander-j-motyl/is-losing-crimea-a-loss

Indeed, it would a smaller, but a much more viable, cohesive and efficient country.

And that's before you factor in the benefits of EU membership.

Harry UDI was declared no matter how many times you pretend otherwise that's why the Court ruled it unconstitutional.

Harry, no one is going to give away any parts of Ukraine. Yes, they have been receiving more into their regional budgets than were giving back, but it was partially because of the Yanukovych regime, who directed money there to only be stolen by his so-called "family" which owns huge industrial corporations. Presently, the government prepares the legislation about increasing control of the budgets by the regions and everyone is going to be responsible of what is going on locally. The fact that they have low birthrates or AIDS or whatever doesn't mean that we have to get rid of them. These are citizens of our country, we are not abandoning anyone, because it is "uncomfortable" or we are "better off" without them.

FlaglessPole, what would you say if tomorrow, Russian speznaz organize another 100-500 people taking over the administrative center somewhere in the west of Ukraine? Do we have to get rid of it too and become smaller, but more cohesive? Imagine your own country and say me that you would give away any piece of your land terrorized by 500 people?!

I think you and Harry are wrong here.

Ukraine isn't going to join the EU any time soon and is basically broke. Russia is no longer subsidising its economy with cheap gas and open borders. To earn foreign currency they now need to compete on the world stage, at the same time the conditions imposed for the loans means that Ukraine has to open up to others meaning Ukrainian commerce has to compete for the home market as well as the foreign market. The net result is that everything will be much more difficult for the people of Ukraine for the foreseeable future.

Sure it was Barney, just like there were no Russian troops in Crimea before Crimea joined Russia, the referendum was not fixed, Russia has not breached the terms of the Budapest Memorandum and Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education.


I've already nailed that lie Barney, want me to do it again?


If it was a sh!t bit which cost me lots of money and was going to cost me even more, I'd happily wave it goodbye.

No you started babbling nonsense and wanted to re define words.

The court ruled the declaration unconstitutional if it didnt happen as you claim why would the court need to make a ruling?