Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Yawn. We've been through this before:


polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/ukraine-crisis-wa y-see-70150/13/#msg1433493

Attempting to redefine meanings to remove a lie means you are being ridiculous.

Crimea declared UDI it doesn't matter what they do with it they declared it the Ukrainian court knows they declared it, news outlets reported it but you trump everyone because you told a lie on the internet.

Believe it or not you don't get to change meanings to suit yourself and cover a lie.

Now anything to say about the economic situation the Coup has left the country in? Or do you get to define what is real Ukraine and what is not.

I'm not attempting to redefine any meanings at all. I'm pointing out that the Ukrainian supreme court found a resolution to be unconstitutional, not any declaration. I'm not the one who claims that announcing 'We're going to join another country' is a declaration of independence (no matter how strongly the Kremlin insist it is); you are the one doing that.


Really? Is that why you pointedly refuse to answer the question of in what way is a self-appointed bunch of criminals announcing that an area of land is going to join another country a declaration of independence?


'Independence' does not mean 'being a part of another country'.


I can't say anything about that, as there hasn't been a coup.
If you want to ask me about the economic condition that the Russian invasion of Crimea which you support has left Ukraine, I'll point out that Crimea drained some four billion hryvnia per year from the central coffers. Hopeful Russia can also be convince to steal other parts of Ukraine which are little more than a drain on public funds and thus improve the Ukrainian economy even further.

Firstly because I point out that the UDI was made and that your mathematical understanding is severely lacking doesnt mean I support partition or Putin's imperial ambitions, Its a lie to say otherwise. Because I point out the pivotal role neo nazis played in the violence doesnt mean I support Russian imperialism despite your many lies that I do. I have said many times that I dont support partition because partition is what imperialists do and I dont support imperialists.

The people in Crimea made a UDI then joined Russia that is the sequence of events. You have repeatedly lied about that attempting to change meaning. Its unimportant if 1 second after making a UDI the territory makes a decision to do something else they still made a UDI and you lied about it. They were independent then they chose to join Russia that is the chronology and you lied about it.

You got to be really stupid to not see exactly why the UDI was made and even worse to maintain the lie that it wasnt made.


Spoken like a true imperialist, I suppose everything even hypocrisy has a price.


When was the election? I missed the resignation of the president or his constitutional removal
This coup has made things worse for the people of Ukraine now they are going to be shafted by both east and west.

The people in Crimea? You're now claiming that the supposed UDI was made by the people? ROFL!
And your sequence of events leaves out one tiny little step: the rigged referendum in which the people of Crimea supposedly decided that they were going to join Russia. So you want us to believe that saying 'We're going to join another country' is a statement of independence. LOL


Possibly, however, in this case the territory had supposedly decided the day before the 'UDI' that it was going to do something else.


Are you also one of those people who claims that no Russian troops were in Crimea before Crimea joined Russia?


Quite the opposite actually. You might think that blowing people to bits over who owns which bit of land is acceptable (actually, given the organisations that you support, we can most probably drop the word 'might'); I don't. If Russia wants to make the rest of Ukraine a better place, I say let it.


Yanukovych abandoned his office and recorded an official statement of resignation. He also failed to sign the agreement he had committed to sign returning the country to the 2004 constitution. There was no coup in Ukraine, that's my position and that of Poland. You are of course more than welcome to continue to parot Kremlin propaganda: you won't be fooling any Poles.

Christ on a bike, you always do this when shown to be dishonest that's when you are not changing the point or driving the thread off topic by posting about ( in this case) the IRA. Isn't it a coincidence that you bring up the IRA so regularly when engaged with Irish posters irrespective of the topic and irrespective of the truth. What do you talk about to black people or south Asian people it's fair to say that nationality or race is foremost in your mind.

The people in Crimea the ones who declared UDI not the people of Crimea the population, you have got to be really stupid to think otherwise. The declaration was made what they intended to do with it is irrelevant and you lied about it hence you are now arguing that black is white. The Ukrainian court told lies, international media outlets told lies but Harry from the internet is right, he didn't lie the BBC did but Harry didn't.

I don't remember seeing this supposed resignation letter being made public, I asked for a link to it a while ago but weeks later still no link isn't that surprising. The president was removed he didn't resign, I don't care if that is your position or how often you lie about it until a letter of resignation is produced the events can be accurately described as a coup. The Junta have no mandate and no right to sign binding agreements.

An individual supporting Putin's imperial ambitions can be accurately described as an imperialist granted deluded dreamer but an imperialist, a supporter of colonialism and probably a supremacist.

Oh dear, Barney: no attempt to address any of the facts. Not even the slightest comment on the fact that you claimed the 'UDI' came before the decision to join Russia when the reality was the exact reverse. Just your usual mix of insults and bluster.


I don't remember saying that there was any resignation letter, but do feel free to lie and say that I did say that.


The Ukrainian supreme court ruled on the Crimean resolution, no matter how much you want them to have ruled on something else.


Given that you refuse to accept that people who plant limpet mines in shopping malls, burger bars, video arcades are accurately described as terrorists, your views on what things are accurately described as are more than somewhat suspect. Personally I'm going with the stance of the Polish government. Do feel free to yourself go yet again with the lies of the dictator in the Kremlin.


No you can't Barney, you're not an imperialist in the slightest or any sort of colonialist; you're just mistaken enough to think that the enemy of your enemy is your friend and therefore you support him: the rest of us know that Putin is in no way your friend.

The facts are there was a coup and Crimea made a UDI, you are lying about both.

If there was no coup then the president was removed by constitutional means or he resigned we know the first is not true and there is a distinct lack of a resignation letter clearly there was a coup.

Every one except Harry from the internet is lying about the UDI and Crimea, it's the height of madness to deny what was so clearly and widely reported. It's a fact UDI was declared and then they joined Russia. Inventing your own definition because you told a lie is so obviously ridiculous it's beyond parody.

I've met bigots like you before it doesn't really bother me, occasionally I wonder what made the bigots that way then shake my head and continue thinking about nice things.

Crimea was annexed by Russia on the questionable legal basis of a dodgy plebiscite.

The 'UDI' came after the announcement that Crimea would join Russia and no amount of lying from you will change that.


You're welcome to parrot the line of the dictator in the Kremlin; I, however, support the stance of the government of Poland.


Good to see you getting the insults out, Barney, really tells us that you have run out of even vague arguments to support your lies.


Dodgy? The electoral role included more people than were eligible to vote and in which Russian citizens who were not Ukrainian citizens were allowed to vote. Barney sees nothing wrong with it though.

The entire process was dodgy and UDI was needed to make it all "legal", it doesn't matter what the intention was UDI was declared and was widely reported.

Harry no insults just a description of someone who resorts to crude xenophobic comments at the drop of a hat.

Effectively a sham. They can call it 'UDI', they can call it a Workers' Soviet, they can call it Utopia. It was annexation by Russia and nothing, repeat nothing, else.

I understand, Harry, but there are millions of people you are talking about, who want to live in their country, which is Ukraine. One thing:


washingtonpost.com/world/europe/kiev-says-russia-provokes-trouble-in-eastern-ukraine-just-as-in-crimea/2014/04/07/8242ee71-465b-4113-91be-93f8bfa67ff1_story.html
I mean these people don't even know where is the mayor's office and where is an opera house! Clearly Russian scum sent to shake the uneasy situation after the escape of Yanukovych. I know that you know; this is rather an info for Barney and alike.


Barney, you are like a broken recorder. The only country that says it was a coup is Russia, Kim Jon Un and you. The rest of the world says it was not. Your neo-nazi empty phrases is nothing more than hallucinations of a Russian agent, Svoboda is a right-wing party, which in Ukraine currently has around 2-3% support. Among the party members are some crazy men who did a few wrongdoings and this will cost them voices in the future parliamentary elections. Most of Ukraine considers them almost like traitors and their actions are seen nothing as destabilizing and playing on hand of Putin. But your generalizations about the whole party and with it the government is nothing more than a childish blubber.

When I see the phrases like "Russian scum" over and over, I begin to doubt that the authors really have anyone's well being in mind.

Russians and Ukrainians are a complicated blend, and these jingoistic calls to arms by military buffs and rebels looking for a cause are both dangerous and irresponsible.

There are no guarantees that the Ukrainian government will do right by its people, and if we judge by the recent history, quite the opposite.

In addition, many Ukrainians travel to Russia for work, and consider Russian economy more stable than their own. It looks to me that anyone pointing out these economic realities get shouted down, probably because too many long for the good old times of the evil communists and for for US and Russia to be in conflict again. Pipe the fck down.

On the 20 year anniversary of the Rwandan genocide, the question constantly posed by the media here is: how could the neighbours who new and successfully interacted with each other in the past, have all of a sudden turned on each other so viciously?

His country has been invaded by Russians, he legally entitled to kill them on sight, according to UN laws on war.

Calling them scum is perfectly understandable.

you just made my point. Military buff, I assume.

Since I have no illusions about changing anyone's opinion on internet forums, the perspective below is mostly for those that watch the war excitement with growing unease, so they have some affirmation, too.

Modern military (especially in the US) is a welfare system for institutionalizing of the violent, feeble minded and lazy opportunists.
And, since wealth rules, those inducted into armed forces are used to expand the economic gains of the elite.
The way the soldiers are controlled, is with the nationalistic claptrap, which not only conveniently justifies, but even glorifies, killing other people.
In US, apparently there is a ample supply of volunteers, since there is still no draft. But in countries where service is mandatory, I'd expect that more lucidity would abound.

Unfortunately, too many people are having trouble finding their place in the modern world, and this patriotic-hero-dying-for-a-particular-flag is the highest life aspiration they can envision.

Absurd. Stop blaming others and try to better yourselves.

How would you call Russian FSB agents working in Ukraine, doing everything possible to destabilize the situation, including with the acts of terrorism (people who took over the regional administrative building have heavy weaponry, among which are guns used only in the Russian Federation) and all this after the fall of Yanukovych regime (which murdered people and destroyed completely the economy) and the invasion and annexation of Crimea? What should I call them? Russian peacemakers?! Sweet bunnies?


What the so-called stability of the Russian economy has to do with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia and now their support of the terrorists? It is easy for you to sit in front of a monitor and with painted fingernails tap this crepe and talk about the "reality". I have nothing against people who travel to work in Russia, EU, Brasil, wherever. This is done all over the world. The thing is Russia tries to force us to do what it wants with all means: military, economical, political etc. Look what they do to Poland for its support of Ukraine - they set a ban on its dairy products and meat. Is this normal? Is this shouting someone down to travel for work to Russia?


Relax. I am not your boyfriend.

Nathan, there is no point ignoring things that clearly happened because you are uncomfortable with them. There was no need to include Svodoba in this new regime if they are an embarrassment to the Ukrainian people, other political parties are not in the new regime. Is it possible that they were rewarded for providing the baseball bat democrats in the coup?


Well yes the demonisation of Russian people, Tymoshenko wants to murder them even if they are Ukrainian citizens.

No, a carefully edited tape released by the Kremlin says that Tymoshenko wants to murder the Ukrainian Russians, Tymoshenko does not say that. How surprising it is to see you yet again parroting the Kremlin's lies.

However, as we're talking about what people claim politicians have said, let's have a look at the words of the glorious dictator whose lies you repeat here:


kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/putin-russia-will-not-go-to-war-with-people-of-ukraine-338346.html
That isn't an edited tape, that is the president of Russia directly advocating a war crime: using women and children as a human shield. And it's a policy his army apparently put into practice:


newrepublic.com/article/117122/donetsk-letter-ukrainian-russians-dont-all-want-putin-protection

I look forward to seeing you defending that statement and that action. Perhaps you'd like to claim that the kindergarten was a neo-Nazi kindergarten and controlled by the Right Sector?

UN law is clear, if they are in uniform they can be killed. If they are out of uniform they can be caught and hanged/shot as spies - perfectly legally.

Ukrainian citizens acting as spies/agents of a foreign country can be tried for treason. There is no death penalty but they could re-install it I suppose.

Calling them all scum is the least of it..

Jesus wept.......................

For the slow witted, the Tymoshenko tape was not doctored and the threat was not real. She does not want to nuke Russian speakers but did say the words. Nathan made a thread about another leaked tape and I'm sure is big enough to see and take the barb.


Is everyone on the internet a legal genius?

The lady herself says otherwise. She says the section about ethnic Russians was a montage.


aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/tymoshenko-denies-wipe-out-russians-comment-201432513315433906.html

But please do feel free to carry on telling the Kremlin's lies here.

Jesus....

She is not going to say anything else

So they spliced prerecorded bits together, what was the context when she did say those words? Wanting to nuke Russian speakers is not an everyday statement.

Reagan was joking when he said something similar she was livid when she said the silly thing.

The Russian president has already announced that his forces will use women and children as a human shield if Ukrainian forces put up resistence but you still expect Ukrainian politicians to only make everyday statements.


As Reagan said, there you go again. She did not make that statement: the tape was edited in order to make it appear that she did.

Of course people are welcome to believe the lies that the Kremlin and you are telling about Tymoshenko; but those lies will be every bit as untrue as the Kremlin's lie that 'pro-Russian' forces had captured a US army drone and your lie that Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education.

Putin can say whatever he wants, you however claim the tape was carefully edited


and


Now to make such a statement you must be au fait with editing software, you are not reporting others words but making statements.

Its possible and plausible to edit a conversation by splicing phrases or uttered statements together, to do so with individual words is next to impossible. She made those statements I'm asking what was the context or you could of course briefly explain the editing process involved.

The third and most likely possibility is that she said the words in anger.

Are you actually capable of telling the truth?


en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/197607.html


rferl.org/content/ukraine-tymoshenko-tape-language-russians/25308845.html


washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/25/in-latest-wiretapping-leak-yulia-tymoshenko-appears-to-say-nuclear-weapons-should-be-used-to-kill-russians


inserbia.info/today/2014/03/tymoshenko-in-leaked-tape-time-to-grab-guns-and-kill-damn-russians/


And no doubt he can rely on your support when he does.

So you have no expertise with editing software despite your very confident statements, its clear that you don't know what you are talking about. You are sure her words were edited so sure you felt no need to provide expert opinion yet you personally can't explain how this was done. You just believe her and her equivalent to the "my account was hacked" defence.

That is laughably ridiculous, the woman spouted nonsense because she was livid with anger.

It's a choice of who to believe: Tymoshenko or the side who have been boasting about 'pro-Russian' forces having captured a US army drone and warning that Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education. Given that you yourself have parroted one of those two lies, it's no surprise to see who you choose to believe.

It is indeed; A fantastical editing job that you confidently insist on but cant explain or she was angry, I go with her loosing the bap.

How do you know it's a fantastic job? Have you heard the call? Or are you merely commenting on what the Kremlin have release, blindly accepting the lies that they tell you and repeating those lies here? Clearly you learned nothing from being caught in your lies about Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education.