Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Harry, all superpowers do that, there are many examples.

Israel does it all the time, although they do kill the populations they 'conquer'.
The US attack every country they can, they keep violating international law, but who cares, they're the good ones, right?

The Crimean case is a bit complex. Actually, all the Ukrainian case is complex.

As for that matter is Israel and their hostile, threatening and unstable neighbours.

With Ukraine, any 'complexity' has been compounded tenfold by rigged plebiscites, masked men in black occupying public buildings and an aggressive and corrupt ex-KGB dictator massing troops at the border.

There are reasons for that. Israel leaders are quite hostile and threatening too, and not very willing to discuss.


That's your version of the story. Evidence show that those 'masked men' shot civilians and policemen, with no distinction. You say it was all organised by Russia, some people think it was planned by the West. Who's right? The question is: who would benefit more of that chaos?

I read Polish and French medias, and I'm sick of what many of them say day after day. Talking about propaganda.
There's something unclear about all that stuff.

That assertion is utterly irrelevant when assessing whether Russia has expansionist intent.


Yawn. Your assertion is entirely untrue and off topic. Nice try though. I wonder why you seek to excuse Russia's illegal acts.


Actually the Crimea case is very simple: Crimea is part of Ukraine; Russia signed an international treaty confirming the Crimea was part of Ukraine and promising to protect Ukrainian territorial integrity; even data from a Russian government body showed that no more than 30% of the people of Crimea voted in favour of Crimea joining Russia. Crimea is an example of Russia aggression and theft, pure and simple.

Geopolitical reality, that's it, my friend. I'm not happy with that either.


Tell me more.


I'm not excusing anyone, I'm just saying this kind of things happen all the time, and no-one accuses us when we (Western people) do that.


When was that?


Never heard about that source. Anyway, sources always differ. Again, who's right?

It may be, or it may not be; however, whether it is or not is utterly irrelevant when assessing whether Russia's expansionist intent is shown by its illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea.


Israel does not 'do it all the time' (and hasn't annexed any territory in the best part of half a century) and most certainly does not 'kill the populations' of areas its forces occupy. Telling anti-Semitic lies does less than nothing for your case.


Really? So when did a western country last invade and annex part of a foreign country? I'd be thinking that the last bit of annexing done by us would be 1945.


Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994, i.e. the this document was signed: the Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

I'd draw your attention to the following specific elements:
"1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

...
4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used."

Have a read: en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances


It was the President of Russia's Council on Civil Society and Human Rights. Educate yourself: forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation

Russian propaganda outlet gets caught lying yet again:


Full article here rferl.org/content/ukraine-unspun-russian-tv-airs-old-footage/25390153.html

I wonder if any of the Kremlin fanboys will try to explain this lie; probably not, given that they don't even bother to try to justify the lies that they themselves are caught telling.

'Annexation' is not accurate since a referendum was held. You may discuss the referendum, but the point is: at least officially, the people decided.


Golan? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights - here



I read once about a massacre in a Syrian village but can't remember its name.


Criticizing a country's politics is racism? Dammit, I didn't see that coming...


Invasion is not always necessary, but I was thinking of Mayotte (I'm French, it was easy). Kinda similar to the Crimea case.


Is that applicable to that case? I mean is it recognised internationally? I found no mention of that document before.


Pointed out by an American who covers 'domestic and world economics from a free-market perspective'. Probably not the most objective source it seems.

To me, there's propaganda on both sides. It's hard to tell where's the truth in all that mess.


Unfortunately, you're right.

That's the accepted version and given Russia's proven use of stooges, plus the troops on the border, it's accepted for a reason. Who would benefit? Russia.

The 'referendum' was a complete farce and, as even Russian officials now admit, was rigged to point of worthlessness. Oh, and it was also illegal. So no, officially the people did not decide.


Yawn. That territory was annexed 38 years ago. Your claim was that Israel annexes territory "all the time". If your lie was true, you'd be able to produce many more recent examples than a single example from two generations ago.


Not in the slightest bit similar. Mayotte voted twice in legitimate and lawful referendums to remain under French rule.


Yes it is, and yes it is. Your ignorance of the memorandum in no way lessens the commitments which Russia gave in it and now completely ignores.


Fine. Here's the same news reported by:

Al Jazeera
The Washington Post
Bloomberg

Feel free to attack those sources too, given that you were, are and will be unable to attack the accuracy of the reporting.

How many referendums was in 1954, before handing Crimea from RSFSR to Ukrainian SSR?

Does anyone asked Crimean inhabitants about this move?

About as many as in 2014, since Putain's charade in the Crimea and in the Donbass cannot be called referenda any more than Mickey Mouse can be called a rodent.

Precisely the same number as the number of referendums held with regard to Crimea joining the RSFSR and the same as number held with regard to Crimea joining the Russian empire.

However, in none of those cases had the acquiring state signed an international agreement in which it promised that it would "respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of" the state to which Crimea belonged at the it was 'acquired'.

according to forbes:
"As you may recall, the official Crimean election results, as reported widely in the Western press, showed a 97 percent vote in favor of annexation with a turnout of 83 percent. No international observers were allowed"

not to mention they link to some Ukrainian pro junta website.this website got information from sum woman who saw report on russian website that doesn't exsist anymore.lol

and now to forbes bastards and their lies.
since when international observers were not allowed?they refused to go,and even this is not totly truth because some 140 did go including polish parties representatives from self defence and solidatity poland.and they all stated that referendum was excellent and no manipulations were found.

first western world refused to sent observers,those who went to Crimea were labelled traitors and fascist and now,what we got is how they try to twist it by saying Russia didn't allow to participate.didnt take those scumbags long.

am fed up with this ****.
you are Lier Harry,again and again.and spare us those links with nazi junta controlled websites.

russia invites observers:


finally they got referendum,and they expressed they desire to join with Russia with 97% support

Genuine international observers were not invited.
And of the supposed observers who were invited:



How surprising to see you speaking up in support of Neo-nazis, gregy.


Wow, even by your standards you seem to be losing the plot. Do you seriously expect anybody here to believe that Al Jezeera, the Washington Post, Forbes and Bloomberg are controlled by a 'Nazi junta'? ROFL!

Please do post again soon, gregy: your posts are becoming nothing short of pure comedy gold!

you are lair..who do you call "genuine" and who is deciding who is genuine or not?
major parties representatives were present from Poland,from self -defense,solidarity and SLD.
All polish parties were invited to participate,with PIS and PO refusing.AS a reason,they said they dont want to give legitimacy to decision made during referendum.in other words,thay knew ppl gonna vote for Russia,and didn't want to legitimate this with their presence.

you are liar,and pathetic attempts to discredit observers by bringing up some nasty episodes from life of 1 or 2 members of observers delegation is laughable

Real election observers are impartial and observe elections from a neutral point of view. They are not invited solely by one side. I note that you think that Russia has the right to invite official observers to elections in another country; do you also think that Russia has the right to invite official observers to elections in Poland? You'll have to search far and wide before you find a Pole you agrees with you.


The only people who can invite observers to elections in Ukraine would be the Ukrainian government or the United Nations; neither of them invited any Poles to take part, so you can stop with your pro-Kremlin lies.


Do feel very free to try to point out any lies you want to claim I tell; if you need an example of lies being pointed out, just look at the way I point out the lies of you and your fellow Kremlin fanboys.

see Harry,,you are being exposed as Liar every post you write here,
first you link us to site that claims no observes were allowed,once exposed as lie,you now change and try to discredit observers and make us believe that Russia picked up ppl from "neo nazis" parties like jobik (lol),which still doesn't change the fact that observers were allowed and they were there in Crimea.

this is pathetic Harry..you need to improve your game in those manipulation and lies attempts .they are primitive

The real observers were shot at.

The gaggle of neo-Nazis you want to defend were no more 'observers' than the farce was a 'referendum'.


Are you trying to claim that you know more about this part of the world than Timothy Snyder? LOL! Next you'll be trying to tell us that the neo-nazis Russia invited are neo-nazis and that Russia has the right to invite official observers to Polish elections :D

"We categorically condemn the participation of Polish politicians to legitimize the illegal referendums and occupation of the territory of Ukraine. I find it highly harmful activities - said the Minister of Foreign Affairs Radoslaw Sikorski on Polish parliamentarians who showed up on Sunday in the Crimea to observe the referendum on the accession of the peninsula to Russia"

i tho you said they were not allowed by Russia
you are liar Harry

I said that genuine international observers were not invited. And that genuine international observers were shot at. Both of those are undeniably true. However, please do feel more than free to carry on you quixotic attempt to change reality by simply lying about it again and again and again and again and again and again..

and yet another lie

this incident was involved in osce mission observers,they were not there to observe referendum but human rights,they went there few days after referendum

and reason for being expelled is obvious,they went there by invitation from Ukrainian government,at this time Crimea was not Ukrainian territory and they had no permission to enter Russias territory.

keep trying Harry

The men in black are pro-Kiev forces, there's videos on this if you like.

are you talking about nazi junta having divine right to decide who is genuine and who is not?they are not even genuine government. but one elected with molotov coctails

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Would you like to quote where I said that they were there to observe the election or would you prefer to withdraw and apologise for your latest lie?


Oh dead, you've been caught lying yet again: see how the date on that article about the genuine international observers being shot at is 8 March? Well the 'referendum' was on 16 March. Busted again gregy!


Keep lying gregy, I'll be sure to keep pointing the lies out!

You mean the ones that were seizing public buildings from the Kiev government. Don't make me laugh.

you brought this link as a response and claim that "real" observers were shot.we been talking about referendum and observers of referendum all the time,for god sake

why did you bring up this other incident situation then?
everyone can follow conversation and see what a manipulator you are
man,you are twisted lier and manipulator.

just for you the most recent vice news video interviews some of them + they occur in other videos too. Standing up to Pro-Russian scum by sticking guns on Police men and threaten them :) keep in mind vice news is very pro-western

youtube.com/watch?v=8KFGgKPrWfY

Gregy, are you going to quote me saying what you claim I've said or are you just going to keep lying?

nope,the ones who travel in "privat bank" "stolen" vans

Daft.

So who were the masked men seizing Ukrainian public buildings? Poltergeists?

Who was organising those fake plebiscites?

This is well worth reading:


pewglobal.org/2013/09/03/global-opinion-of-russia-mixed/

This too:


bbc.com/news/world-europe-26526053

That's pretty well what we think here.