Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

keep your blinders on Harry, I am tired of playing this game with you.

So is this rather (un)interesting exchange of opinion going to stop now? Has Harry managed to put all the speakers off? [Not that I have been following the discussion very closely, but the maps of Ukraine pointed to have been quite interesting to examine, I must say.]


More maps and less words, please, please, please!

Ziemowit, instead of trying to discuss me, perhaps you'd like to address the topic of this thread? Let me help you by giving you a starting point: do you think the government which has been lawfully appointed by the lawfully elected parliament of Ukraine should be called a "junta"? Why should it be? Why shouldn't it be?

What we're trying to do here, Harry, is to show you that we're tired of your particular type of discourse.
I would much rather hear opinions, on both sides (please!), instead of arguing who'd lying or not, ad nauseum. Say it once, and move on for fvcks sake! I could not even find what the hell your point was, it's lost in pages and pages pointless bickering.

And about links, there is a reason the mods recommend that you summarize what your link is all about. I would rather know what you got out of it, than click on your links.

f stop, instead of trying to discuss me, perhaps you'd like to address the topic of this thread? Let me help you by giving you a starting point: do you think the government which has been lawfully appointed by the lawfully elected parliament of Ukraine should be called a "junta"? Why should it be? Why shouldn't it be?

Seriously? Does that tactic work on anyone??

I'm more interested in what Poles think. They have an obviously justified mistrust of Russians, but also, they have a more personal dislike of Ukrainians. At least, that is what I gathered from my little family poll.

It's hard to get the truth from the press, unbiased statistics are all but non-existent. It's either Putin or western propaganda.

Another day, another example of Russian state media telling blatant lies:


Full article here: rferl.org/content/russian-tv-announces-right-sector-leader-yarosh-led-ukraine-polls/25398882.html

Thanks, Harry. I laughed my pants off when I was reading it. Yarosh received something like 1% support. Important to add is that Yarosh is an intelligent guy, in no way an extremist, not a Baba Yaga, which the Russian state media scare the Russians and others with.


Could you at least answer Harry's question, instead of presenting your family poll about its attitude towards Ukrainians?


He simply posed you and Ziemovit a question. What tactic are you talking about? From what I gather you are of Polish origin and therefore, it would be very interesting to know your opinion on the clear-cut question, without trying to avoid it or turn it into some feelings contest. Please?

absolutely not. The question about what a "lawfully" elected government should or should not be called? Who cares? It's a stupid, leading question, which tries to bait others into his argument. That tactic.

Welcome back Nathan! It's good to see you posting here again.


It's a real pity you don't read my posts. I explained a while ago that lies such as 'junta' and 'neo-nazi government' are doing very real and very serious damage: they are literally ripping communities apart. Here's a example from the Guardian (my emphasis):



Perhaps you would like to try to discuss the topic of this thread instead of discussing me? Thanks.

are these your friends Nathan? I think right sector are extremist group, even considered being added to the terrorism list. They were at Odessa and have beaten and killed many people. Dmytro Yarosh can be considered a terrorist leader.

youtu.be/3aKYFRbvNFo

I used to, I still consider you one of the smarter posters here, but then you went off the deep end, lost most of the readers by repeating same thing over and over again..

If you say something once and it does not have the desired effect, move on. There are readers here that value your opinion, even if they don't agree with it, but most of all, they do not want to argue and reiterate same thing again.

Take Nathan, here, for example. I offered a bit of a personal side, with Poles I know who cannot decide who they dislike more, Russians or Ukrainians, but he chose to dismiss it because he is too hung up on your meaningless question.

Who cares what government is called by those dissatisfied with it? Regardless of who is in power, within a year, they will be protested against, by somebody.

Thank you, Harry.


Well, first of all, these young people are not from the Right Sector. Secondly, if you spoke Ukrainian, you would understand that the guy in the front refers to the terrorists which threaten our country and its people, terrorize the whole population, especially in the east. They have killed 17 Ukrainian soldiers in the recent attack, 10 of whom were from the region these guys are from. They self organized and will go to help Ukrainian army to eliminate the terrorists, who are now mostly made of the Russian and Chechen infiltrates. As to whether these young men are my friends, I don't know them, but I am proud of them.


You have no idea what your are talking about. Do you draw your info from Russia Today?


How a question which discusses the legality of the government is meaningless and the talk about the family poll you conducted in your family as to the FEELINGS they have towards other nationalities is more important? If they cannot decide whom to dislike more - that is their problem. I hope they will eventually make their minds.

And here we go, an example of diversity of approaches to the subject: you want to harp on how a government is referred to, I'm interested in which government would Poles prefer at their boarder - Russian or Ukrainian.

Yes, and why don't they just join the army? Maybe your proud of them, but to most normal people these men are a disgrace. Another thing whats with the UPA flag that's disrespectful, cant they use the Ukrainian flag?


No, it has been discussed previously on this thread. Maybe you can understand that your side is not so innocent and not go by "bad Russia" "good Ukraine".

Perhaps you'd do better to ask Poles in Poland? I don't know any here who have bad feelings towards Ukrainians. Many have Ukrainian friends/ acquaintances or colleagues. More than a few of us in Warsaw have a Ukrainian who helps in our homes. However, there is still more than a little ill will towards Russians.


Could you perhaps go into detail about the current Ukrainian invasion and occupation of Russia? Thanks.

Well harry this is because you don't neceserally live in the East :) read about OUN and UPa.. and then then about the Right Sector and Stpan Bandera.

No, I just go there several times per year, to places such as Wlodawa, Lublin, Zamosc, Przemysl, Arlamow. People there have even warmer feeling for Ukrainians, in part because there are so many Ukrainians (and Belarussians) there and filling key roles in society, such as teachers and doctors, as well as providing the labour which keeps the economy going (working on farms during the harvest and so on).

Well I have got some family in the Kresy and theme and their neighbours dont speak too kindly of the old times when Ukrainain bands would open Polish womens wombs and would throw a cat inside to kill the mother and the "Polish bastard" inside....

Really goofy? You have family who live in Ukraine and you speak to their neighbours, who are also Polish, about events during WWII?

Yes western ukraine.. Especially close to the polish border has a Polish population, tbh poles keep to themselves down just like in lithuania.

Yes goofy, I'm aware they are there.


No they don't, as is shown by Polish deaths in Kiev during the struggle to rid Ukraine of the Yanukovych regime.

I dont see how these two events contradict eachother Oo...
Yanukovich is gone good.. now we have the Right sector and Svoboda .. nice -_-

No: the Right Sector candidate in the presidential election got less than 1% of the vote and the Svoboda candidate got 1.3%, despite Russian state media trying to claim that Yarosh was in the lead with 37.13 percent of the votes.

Stop changing the tiopic, you have claimed that Poles helped a lot in the revolt etc i am pointing that Ukrainians chose the Right Sector since it was one of the three parties and a majority on Maidan..

RN only got 1.4% yet they all over the country and can form demonstrations of up to 100 000 attending.. Apart from that what gives you an opinion that the ukrainian extremists actually voted?

They did (proportionately to their population size), as is reflected by the casualty list.


No they didn't.


No it wasn't.


No they weren't. Stop believing everything Russia Today tells you.

Give links with translation... Or is just you sheer wiseness in action ?

Links to what?

As I understand you have links to all of those claims negating what I have said .. or is just your common sense and thoughts? If it is then they are just non-factual, unsupported claims..

First you would need to provide links to support your claims so that I can utterly de-bunk those claims and links.

However, I'll debunk one of your claims without you needing to provide links supporting your position: you claimed that "it [Right Sector] was one of the three parties [involved in the overthrow of Yanukovych]" but the reality is that

en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/206070.html

Although I did make one statement of fact, I said that helped a lot in the revolution (proportionately to their population size), as is reflected by the casualty list. Poles in Ukraine account for 0.3% of the population (source), so I only need to name one Leonid Polyansky who was one of the 100 people killed in the Maidan to show the truth of my statement nebesnasotnya.com.ua/en/polyanskyy-leonid