Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Brits would just like that Poles dies for Britain

UK to send 'battle group' to Poland for exercises amid Ukraine crisis

Warsaw Voice



Sikorski among false friends. Squeezed


Can you imagine what kind of sh** this Sikorski must eat by his counterpart from UK. In many of his statements he proved that he knows how interests of leading NATO powers differ from the Polish interests but, he must pretend to enjoy this game.

Politics.

look at this joke now. That is disguising. i hope that they didn`t sold Poland already. Pan Bronislaw should simple put symbol of the target on the flag of Poland. That would prove his loyalty to Omaba and his readiness to sacrifice Poland. i understand him. As long as he is president, he can be president of even half of Poland. or he can be president in exile. Others would be blamed

Polish President calls for stronger NATO eastern flank

July 23, 2014 / Warsaw Voice

warsawvoice.pl/WVpage/pages/article.php/28944/news


It is same like that Bronislaw asked for stronger Viagra.

my reaction exactly, to this painfully obvious attempt at scaremongering... by a Russian high-ranking official, or so would the author of this article want us to believe, which naturally begs the question of who really tries to scare you... to you which you, all ballooned up with overbearing glee, go for a perfect bell-kick yelling 'it's the west!'

And that is funny. On so many levels. Not least due to the fact that the current conflict takes place near the border of the world's largest country, known for its ballet and absolutely fabulous 800 years old tradition of fear and terror based governance that had spawned an impressively long line of first grade, but necessarily top shelf, cvnts, incidentally its leaders, including the last one, a 61 year old former KGB officer with DDR and the old Soviet border fetish...

The world is not divided into two entities that would be:

1. The West: the good, honest, righteous ones.
2. The East: the rest of the world, led by evil Russia (and China maybe?), supposed to be tamed and taught how to live by the good West.


That could be one of the explanations why the US wanted to meddle into this. Another attempt to bring down evil Russia, as in the good old days, you know.

At the moment, Putin is doing his level best to make that seem the case.

He has always been claiming the contrary. Russia is defending the idea of a multipolar world (while the West, especially governments and medias, prefer the bipolar (good/bad, rich/poor) version).

And since the beginning of the conflict, Putin seems to be one of the only world leaders to show moderation and self-control, while others keep calling for war against Russia (at least economically, for now).

Nail on head

What did the west do when there was no counterbalance, the wast went on a global rampage, launching wars of aggression and formalising a global torture network. They went out of their way to suppress democracy and human rights.

The hysteria around Russia is ridiculous, the west facilitated the plunder of Ukraine, thats where the money ended up through a number of off shore tax havens. They would do anything including turning a blind eye to the murder of their own citizens so long as Russian money kept pouring into London.

Any moron can swallow the pink propaganda; as nice as it would be to have sexual equality everywhere it is just a transparent piece of propaganda. The same bollox was used to justify the wars of aggression, one would have thought the onslaught on Afghanistan or Iraq was some sort of feminist mission if you believed the hype.

There is no indignation at the lack of gay rights in the despotic human rights abusing gulf states so long as they keep buying weapons, investing in the west and supplying relatively cheap hydrocarbons.

The lies told and massive deception the west used in Libya was probably the death knell for any belief in a unipolar world working.

None of this excuses the ultimate annexation of Crimea or the destabilisation in the East of Ukraine however the coup leaders and Nazi components bear at least half as much responsibility as the Russians.

No. He's trying to restore Russia's imperialistic history (his so-called Eurasian Union) while making the oligarchs behind him almost impossibly rich. One reason we need a strong, democratic Europe.

But hey, perhaps you prefer a world where all dissent is crushed.


Isn't there? Then again, in those States prosecutions are rare and anti-gay rhetoric far less than in today's Moscow.

Good contribution, Barney, thanks.


While the US and EU 'want' (not everyone actually) a Transatlantic Free Trade Agreement (TAFTA).
This is the game everyone wants to play. Don't blame it on Russia.


I used to believe in Europe. The Ukrainian conflict was the end of the fairy tale for me.
Europe is just an economic group of countries with different interests.

Good to see you're still lying about the neo-nazis. But do you seriously think that anybody here (other than your fellow Kremlin fanboys) believes a word you say about the Ukrainian government? You have been called out about your extensive list of lies you've been caught telling about them so many times and have so many times refused to address any of the lies that you now have even less credibility than Russia Today or Pravda.

no it's not ( what on earth makes you think that people actually have this black-and-white world view is beyond me), but that part of the world that is dominated by Russia, no matter how you slice it, is a sad sad and comparatively backward place.. definitely not something deserving enlargement.

Just see how Russia is treated in Western media. And then how Israel (considered Western, so buddy) is treated.
Just see how the US are easily forgiven when they do much worse than Russia, and keep doing so anytime they want.


Where is it enlarging? NATO is enlarging. The West is trying to enlarge, any possible way.
The US want to dominate the world, in their own words. Russia doesn't. Fair and square.

Still plenty of independent media sources in the west, many of which you'd doubtless consider 'mainstream'. Those sources operate without censorship or repression, something Russia and its satellites cannot say.

True, good and bad ones. But still, these are not the ones you'll hear on the radio, or watch on TV.

Undoubtedly, since I don't own either a tv or a radio.

Nevertheless, there are many independent media sources in the so-called west and very, very few in Russia. Worth mentioning that those sources that oppose the kremlin are persecuted like Navalny's blog, currently blocked in Russia.

Maybe the US do, but Russia does want to keep its own sphere to which Ukraine certainly belongs. Maybe Poland belongs to it as well according to their old saying: Курица не птица, Польша не заграница / Kuritsa nie ptitsa, Polsha nie zagranitsa - Hen isn't a bird, Poland is not foreign.

plenty of Israel criticism in Europe, please.. don't insult people's intelligence, US' idiotic stance will crumble eventually, now that, despite the draconian censorship of the issue in US, more and more influential Americans speak out against the Israel's inhumane treatment of Palestinians (i.e. Jon Stewart). Whereas in Russia, should you be a journalist critical of Putin's regime, you may very well become puzzled by the sudden drop in your life expectancy.


umm... Crimea... Novorossiya... Osetia... Abkhazia...


no its the former Soviet/Russian satellites (like Poland) trying to make sure that their future won't be tainted and jeopardized by that ever-belligerent bully state to the east. Since they can not pull the tent plugs and move their countries further away from the menace, some form of common protection and assurance is needed.


umm yeah.. so why would they call parts of their neighboring countries 'New Russia'...


yeah exactly.. but as we all know hen is a bird (sorry but it is... i guess it's the feathers, wings etc that gave it away) and Poland, for the 25th year in a row, is happily relieved to be free of Russia...incidentally 25 years ago Ukraine and Poland were on pretty much equal economic footing, the only difference being that UA stayed in the Russian 'sphere of influence' and now... damn, sorry, gotta take a break, my Ukrainian cleaning lady is coming to tidy up the place, might jump out for a burger later on, for real I continue to be impressed with how well those Ukrainian girls working at Warsaw kebab joints speak Polish

The people of Ukraine appear to disagree with you about who their country belongs to.

Eastern Ukraine maybe, and it works both ways. Many eastern Ukrainians do not want IMF austerity, and NATO, which would mean losing their links (and jobs) with Russia.


Then I'll be waiting for the sanctions. (I surely need to be very patient tho)


Such lobbies as AIPAC have way too much power. It's very good (and brave) that some people dare condemn crimes committed by a 'democratic' country, but these are just words so far. Things are not going to change in the near future, unfortunately. (I hope I'm wrong, really)


Nodoby said Russia was a perfect democracy. (there is no perfect democracy) But this doesn't make them the criminals who shot down a civilian plane.


Ridiculously small pieces of land.
Russia doesn't have military bases all over the globe, I think, and is not constantly at war.


So it's pure sympathy that made the West incorporate Poland in their 'Free World', like at Yalta I guess.
Economic ideology against another economic ideology. Poland is just a toy. Sikorski knows that perfectly it seems, but still keeps shaking hands and smiling to his 'friends'.

So you'd rather have Poland turning to another ever-belligerent bully state (USA). Your call.


This is a tiny detail. It doesn't matter much how the pro-Russian separatists want to rename their piece of land.


The people of Ukraine? Which one? I cannot see any kind of homogeneity in the 'people of Ukraine'. I'm trying hard, but I can't...

No, they are just the criminals who provided the missiles to the terrorists who did shoot down MH-17.


Tens of thousands of square kilometres actually, but don't let facts get in your way.


Russia doesn't have bases all over the globe any more, because it was told its forces were no longer welcome. As for war: Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia and North Ossetia-Alania are just some of the places where Russia is at war right now.

Indeed, what I had in mind was "... to which they think Ukraine belongs". I thought it was rather obvious to everyone on the PF, but Harry's most sophisticated radars in search of anyone to start his habitual disagreement with and ready to pass orders to start the fire were on as usual (just as those pro-Russian separatists' radars which were on to detect the Malaysian aircraft so as to fire their missile at).


I'm sure you have got the imperial wisdom present in this old (18th century) Russian saying. Biologically, hen is a bird and be sure the Russians realize that. But "practically" speaking, it is not as it cannot fly or it flies over a very short distance only and with great difficulty. Thus, despite having feathers as you rightly say, the bird (or Poland) cannot fly away long from Russia and is destined to stay with her for ever. That is the essence of the Russian saying and the Russian point of view, but I'm sure that the Russians would not even apply that wisdom to Ukraine. Hen at least has some of its avian attributes, but Ukraine does not at all (that is, in the eyes of the Russians - an explanatory remark for Harry). Those who know the ambitions and role of Moscow in the historical "gathering the Russian/Ruthenian lands together" (zbieranie ziem ruskich) know very well what I mean.

I'd like clear, unbiased evidence, but you have none. Same with the US, who pretend to have evidence, like they pretended to have evidence of Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. We know the truth now, don't we? Too late, unfortunately, Iraq is a dead country, but at least the access to their oil is secured now (not for them tho, just for the 'good ones').


Compared to Russia? Altogether, crumbs.
Novorossiya is nothing so far, it has no official status.
Abkhazia and (South) Ossetia do not belong to Russia.
These are facts too.


Do you think that American troops are still welcome everywhere?


War? Apart from some terrorists attack once in a while, I haven't heard of a 'war'.
Eh, it seems everyone has to fight his own 'terrorists'.

So in your mind it is entirely possible that the Ukrainian army decided to fire a missile at a plane despite the terrorists having no air force and the plane in question flying away from Ukrainian lines, is it? Or are you claiming that Ukrainian forces shot the civilian plane down while knowing full well that it was not a rebel plane?

But of course none of that matters, we still know that it was the terrorist scum who shot MH-17 down: they were boasting about shooting a plane down, right up until it became clear to them that they hadn't shot down the AN-26 they were boasting about.

Sorry to let facts get in your way.

It doesn't take long, does it, for bizarre conspiracy theories to appear. Even though there's no doubt whatsoever about who shot the plane down and who was assisting them in every possible way.

If you look a bit deeper into history books, you'll find that this name was given centuries ago. And this lands never been part of Malorossia (a.k.a.Ukraine) until beginning of 20-th century. Lenin decided to move this primarily Russians-inhabited regions to Ukraine to solve some local problems... What turned now into deep conflict of interests between east and west of Ukraine.

There happens to be other possibilities. And no, Jon, no conspiracy, just POSSIBILITIES. This is how investigations are usually conducted. You should always consider any possibility.

Harry, true, the separatists have no air force (and the Kiev government surely knows that). This is why we may find odd to see many surface to air missile batteries belonging to the Ukrainian army (and Russian-made too) in the area where the plane crashed. Reason for that? Unknown.

Also, it has been said many times that, right before the plane was shot down, two Ukrainian military planes were flying strangely close to the Malaysian plane.

It seems that experts are still not sure whether the plane was hit by a surface to air missile, or air to air missile.

Before everything gets clearer, wouldn't it be better and wiser to stay calm and wait?

Like Schrodinger's Cat, they either did it or they didn't. Having admitted it right at the start is a bit of a giveaway.

They admitted shooting down a plane. And apparently they shot down a Ukrainian military plane.
But I'm not saying they are innocent. Because I don't know.
One thing I'm pretty sure tho, it's that if they did it, it was an accident. They had nothing to gain from it, and actually everything to lose.

On the other hand, if the Ukrainian army did it, it was either an accident, or intentional (yes, that would be horrible). Because they would have a LOT to gain.

Let me guess, those possibilities include it being shot down by little green men.


The reason for that statement is that you are lying: the area where the plane crashed is held by the terrorist scum and was held by them at the time of the crash, so whatever point you were trying to make is an epic fail.


I wonder why the Kremlin fanboys always want us to overlook that one tiny but crucial detail. Any ideas?

surely most balanced and best formulated comment from the long time ago, in this thread. Thank you man

Exactly


Some of their media even suggested the plane was the same one that disappeared a few weeks ago, stuffed with dead bodies especially to make them look bad...