Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Like what?

let`s not repeat ourselves. Ok? This is public debate

You better spot how events proved my points perfectly. Poland is maybe forced to follow EU/NATO dictate right now but, i am more then happy to note, that there are wise politicians in Poland, capable to say truth and publicly announce that interests of west of Europe and USA damaging Poland`s interests >>>

Poland seeks compensation for Russian ban on fruit

August 1, 2014 / Warsaw Voice
warsawvoice.pl/WVpage/pages/article.php/29041/news

Don't you think it's a pity that Russia is not capable of telling the truth when they ban Polish goods for political reasons?

'Fake': Russian Defence Min rebuffs US sat image claims
rt.com/news/176120-fake-ukraine-images-defence

Would that be the same Russian Defence Ministry which claimed that a Ukrainian ground support jet was flying at an altitude it cannot fly at and then edited wikipedia to try and cover up its lies? I guess we can rely on what they say.

SU-25 modification with R95SH engine has service ceiling around 7000m, modification with R195 engine have service ceiling about 10 000 m.

But nobody is 100% sure that it really was SU-25, so...

in case anyone asks why oh why?

December 8, 2000, Soviet Throwback

Putin ditches the new Russian anthem introduced by former President Boris Yeltsin and reinstates the Soviet national anthem, leaving some citizens and international spectators concerned about his true agenda. He also brings back the Communist-style red banner as the official flag of the armed forces.

huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/vladimir-putin-timeline_n_5611027.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Back in the USSR... You think? Nah, really not sure.

He once said this:

Eurasian Union is good idea, Poland should join.

actions speak louder than words, and certainly his actions deafen words:

June 22, 2003, Limiting Press Freedom

Putin shuts down TVS, Russia's last independent television station. All remaining TV stations are pro-Kremlin or Kremlin-controlled.

huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/vladimir-putin-timeline_n_5611027.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

And now they have a new law limiting online freedoms.
bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28583669

That is not the SU-25 which Ukraine operates.


The Russian defence minisitry was very sure. Right up until they were exposed as liars. Few other people even believe that plane even existed.


Poland is in the EU, doing very well in the EU and virtually all Poles are very firmly in favour of Poland being in the EU. But I do understand that the view from suburban Canada might be different.

The Kremlin has attempted to discourage Russians from leaving the country permanently by implementing new rules, which come into force on Monday, requiring all residence permits and overseas citizenships to be declared to the government.

ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/df9c889a-18c6-11e4-80da-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl#axzz39A1sAG7l

Channel 5, Dozhd, REN TV, and STS are independent TVs, and still airing.
State-owned or private industrial group (oligarch)-owned, well, what's best, really?

FlaglessPole and Roger5, your sources are anti-Russian (at least a bit) Western news medias.
They can't be considered neutral and objective.


Indeed, as long as Poland gets aids for its infrastructures.
When (Western?) Ukraine joins the EU (which shouldn't happen too soon), or at least signs agreements with the EU (which they did already if I remember well), all the foreign companies that are now benefiting from the low wages in Poland will leave and benefit from the even lower wages in Ukraine.

pro-Kremlin

Have you watched them?

Had they been in any form critical of Putin's policy towards Ukraine, I'm sure I would have stumbled across their stuff. Russians criticizing Putin on Russian TV - that would have been picked up big time.

Are big US channels critical of Bush/Obama policies towards the rest of the world? (just asking, I don't watch them)
There are loads of newspapers and websites in Russia, and they are not all state-owned, not at all.

sure, most certainly they allow voice of criticism to be heard... as an aside, why do you keep focusing on US is beyond me, there are other countries out there as well... they even have fridges and tvs and an occasional journalist to boot


and they need to be state-owned to be controlled...??? But ok let's assume for the sake of the argument that current situation where ALL the Russian TV stations staunchly back and promote Putin's narrative is by caused by the fact that Putin's divine infallibility compels him to heed his sacred patriotic duty to all Russian people in all of the 'Russian World' - see the map of pre-ninety two Soviet Union if in doubt - and protect them from the ever-encroaching decadent homo-militant jewish neo-nazi EU/NATO menace in cahoots with Nazi junta in Kiev

P.S.

the only still seemingly independent outlet is Novaya Gazeta, a small publication popular within some Moscow, Skt.Petersburg intellectual circles, they printed this:

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-russian-newspaper-novaya-gazeta-prints-frontpage-asking-netherlands-for-forgiveness-9628474.html

The Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta has dedicated its front page today to an apology to the Netherlands for the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash, in which 193 Dutch citizens were killed.

-------

Novaya Gazeta was established by Mikhail Gorbachev, the former leader of the Soviet Union, who used money he received from him his 1990 Nobel Prize to part fund the publication in 1993. The publication is part-owned by Alexander Lebedev, whose son Evgeny owns The Independent.

The liberal opposition newspaper is highly regarded for its investigative journalism and critical coverage of Russian politics. Four of its journalists have been murdered since 2001 including Anna Politkovskaya, a virulent critic of the government and high-profile human rights activist who was shot dead in 2006.

You will find the US each time there's a conflict, anytime, anywhere. Actually, we only see them. It's hard not to mention them.


Shhh, some people here will accuse you of making conspiracy theories.

And well, I do think Putin is defending Russia's interest. As any other leader would.
The fact that the guy's name is Putin makes it look terrible, for many people.


Does the article say that Russia is responsible for this tragedy? Or maybe it's just a shared responsability, with all other countries involved in the conflict?

I can't find Novaya Gazeta's article unfortunately.
They also published this on their blog.

Anyway, Onet.pl is a free Polish media. And it has been talking about World War 3 the whole week. Maybe the Polish state should keep an eye on them ;)

we are talking media here... notably the media outside US... as in other countries... zzzzzzzz...


if Russia's interest is to be some shunned backward bully state, then he does seem to be well on the way..... Any other leader? Or did you mean any other 'dear' leader... How many non dear leaders are there who get to stay in power for 14 years in a row, only to be 'miraculously rewarded' with prospect of another 12 years


yes it does


..? you found a blog titled "Novaya Gazeta"... ... ...although had I been working at a news paper... where 4 journalists critical of Putin had already been murdered... call me silly... I might temper my lofty freedom of speech ideals


no conspiracy theory predilections needed, unless you think it takes a conspiracy theorist to conclude that Russia banned the import of Polish fruit purely for political reasons and not for the sanitary ones

Peace to Slavialand.

Better 1000 days of negotiations then 1 day of war! Peace to Ukrainian and Russian children

Slavija Mati Besmrtna, pray for all of us

This is a media war. The conflict originated a lot from how medias on both sides have been dealing the conflict since its beginning.


Reconstruction after the collapse of USSR will take a long time. Russia didn't send its troops to Afghanistan (except in the 70's when the US provoked their intervention), neither did it send its troops to Irak, Libya, and Syria, causing the death of about one MILLION people, mostly CIVILIANS. Actually, Russia managed to convince Obama not to go bombing Syria. How backward is that?


Do you have a link? Can't find NG's article on the Internet.


I got there from their official website.


Well, when you press everyone to impose more and more sanctions on Russia, what do you think Russia should do?

You have an amazing ability to steer a discussion into a ditch, just for the sake of waffling. How does this response stack up to your original statement.... never-mind, fyi this conflict originates from Ukrainians finally getting fed up with the sorry state of their country... they want better.. the problem is Putin won't let them as he thinks he knows better what's good for Ukraine... it really is that simple, who then joins the fray is merely an afterthought.


here we go again talking about US.... Russia convinced Obama not to bomb... oh jaysus on a pogo stick - facepalm.. Putin doesn't give a flying fook about anyone in Syira 'cept his little naval base and not so little weapon export market which Assad's regime constitutes.. that's all there is to it


there is, it's a 16 min podcast


as I said...



my mention of the Russian sanctions against Poland is not a sign of my incredulity over them happening in the first place... but that should be have been clear seeing as I wrote:


as in it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to conclude that Putin is firmly in control of Russian media.. even if a particular media outlet isn't state-owned...


For starters I think Russia, world's largest state and all in all not such a swish place, shouldn't be too concerned with acquiring more territory from its neighbors...

It's not for the sake of waffling: it's to stop more people finding out how morally bankrupt the state he slavishly supports is.


Putin doesn't give a cr@p about what's good for Ukraine; he only cares about what is good for Putin.

The troops, the tanks, and the artillery is in place. The shelling has begun. Is this just another skirmish? Or something much, much bigger?
Right now Russia is moving troops, armor, and advanced antiaircraft missiles toward the border with Ukraine. In the last 48 hours, dozens of videos have been uploaded to social-media sites that show Russian armor very close to the border, many of them confirmed to be within mere kilometers of Ukraine.

- See more at: thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/russia-s-military-is-already-in-east-ukraine-will-there-be-a-full-scale-invasion.html#sthash.Fgl65bOV.dpuf

No, it's not that simple. Ukraine has always been divided, it's not a recent phenomenon. Huntington analysed it with great accuracy almost 20 years ago in his Clash of Civilizations.

If you want a simple description of the situation, here it goes: Ukrainians in the western part of the country feel closer to the Western world, and want closer ties. Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country want to keep close links with Russia.

IMO, the US/EU coalition has been supporting the coup d'état (call it what you want, it doesn't really matter here), while Russia has been supporting the other side, the people who didn't want to lose their close links with neighbouring Russia.

Ukrainians getting fed up with the sorry state of their country, yes, we can totally understand that. But ask the Greeks what they think of IMF austerity, cuz that is what awaits 'freed' Ukrainians now.


Yes, he defended Russia's interests. Every country defends its own interests. This is how it works.


Yup, freedom of medias in Russia, there is a lot to say, everyone knows that.
Medias here have more freedom, apparently. But major mass medias are owned by private groups, who also have private interests and ways to pressure governments.


Apart from Crimea, what territories did Russia acquire?


Oh, Harry, I missed your smart contributions.
Altough I'm a bit disappointed by the fact that you still haven't realised that I'm not supporting anyone. Unlike you.


Any evidence?

yeah well... but... here is a tiny cumbersome detail; according to the polls conducted prior to the open hostilities in Donbass or should I say prior to the (at-gun-point) creation of Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republic only 25% of population in these regions supported merger with Russia.... yeah i know bummer. Particularly Kharkiv staunchly opposes Putin. It may come to you as a shock but not all Russians want to be part of Putin's Russia. In Baltic countries only 5% of Russian minority want that. The percentage is naturally higher in east Ukraine given its shoddy state...


Greeks now...ok, that is a separate issue deserving its own thread. Prior to Romania and Bulgaria's accession to the EU, Greece was the most corrupt country in the union... with citizenry fabulously adept at not paying taxes... fvck the Greeks, they have themselves to thank for it. Ukrainians on the other hand, I wager, have a steelier resolve, further hardened by the ongoing conflict.. once they cast off the Russian yoke their future will have a brighter outlook despite the initial inevitable hardships, all they need to do is cross the Polish border to see the difference. Ultimately it's up them to sort their **** out and not up to Putin.


and yet you implied some semblance of altruism or some higher humane function on part of Putin by saying



exactly, different private groups, often with different, disparate, divergent interests as in multitude, variety.. choice, whereas in Russia - one party line


Abkhazia, Ossetia... not to mention Chechnya, funnily enough inhabited by Chechens who for a moment dared to think they could be free.... silly them. And then there are Baltic states, firmly in Putin's cross-sights, his recent proposal for them to leave Nato in exchange for lower gas prices caused a much needed comedic relief in those countries.

Exactly, most of the Ukrainians in the east want to stay in Ukraine. That's why a solution could be found, if the two parties wanted to sit and talk...


Our medias played the 'they deserved it' card a lot. Now, is it completely true? I don't know. Citizens from everywhere try to turn things to their advantage. Believe me, I'm French, I heard a lot of things about French people. The only difference with Greece, I'd say, is that French economy is a lot stronger.

About Greece, I guess the whole system was f...ed up, and some people benefited from it, and I'm not talking about the citizens who are paying the (high) price now.

Anyway, you're right, this is not the place to discuss about the situation in Greece.


That area of Poland is far from being the richest. If it wasn't for tourism, people there would still be living in wooden huts, with their donkey carts parked in the 'alleyway' ;)

What I fear, is that it will take so much time and so many sacrifices for Ukrainians to start to feel the difference, that they may end up seriously disappointed, and may even feel deceived. While new billionaires will show up, again and again, just like before.


I didn't go as far as using (or even suggesting) the word altruism, but it seems that the US was really ready for a military intervention in Syria, and that Obama reconsidered and eventually cancelled it, after a phone conversation with Putin. Probably they both agreed that their personal and mutual interests were not in a war in Syria.


They don't belong to Russia.


I really doubt that. The fact that Putin would like Russia's direct neighbours to leave NATO, alright, that I can believe. That's it tho. Baltic states will not end up like Crimea. It would be a LOT harder, if not impossible, and there would be no (somehow valid) reason to justify that. Plus, I don't see Russia's interest in an annexion of this kind. China wouldn't accept it ;)

but they don't.. besides I meant Poland as a whole, the differences between Ukraine and Poland are stark.


be that as it may, for now at least, they do want to try a different approach in stead of stagnating in 'Russkiy Mir'. Personally I think they should be allowed... unfortunately that's not what Putin thinks.


yeah but they have been 'gifted' with Russian passports and Putin's chivalry dictates to 'protect' all Russian citizens...


They are certainly on his agenda, 2008 all out cyberattack on Estonia anyone? But I agree, it would be close to impossible to get away with a direct invasion of Baltic countries given the situation now. I think Putin may have underestimated EU's resolve pertaining to the current crisis in Ukraine.


besides... as easy as it is to rally a fifth column out in the eastern Ukrainian boonies with a shrill propaganda about homosexual jewish nazi EU banderists coming to crucify your kids, the same approach won't work in the Baltics.