Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

i can argue with arguments only with reasonable people.some here throw blatant lies right into your face and once exposed they are like "lets forget about that and focus on today's lies"and so on.

what arguments can one use in conversation with openly supporter of SS units and bandera? who gets his "informations" from "sloboda radio" "SBU" "euromaidan" and so on?joke

am involved in some forums and people here are worst..nothing but cheap blatant lies,propaganda and spam with "stopfake" rubbish to avoid responding to unconvenient truth.

i rarely learned any good independent info here to help me understand this conflict.

OK, here you have independent views. Not who launched missiles on the passenger plane but genesis of present Ukrainian crisis, with deep roots accumulated ever since Ukraine became independent.

the original link from WSJ
here: online.wsj.com/articles/phil-gramm-and-michael-solon-a-lesson-for-america-in-polands-rise-and-ukraines-fall-1409353092
does not work (unless one want to pay) I tried US, UK and Polish servers and no cigar.

But I have found re-print
here: luxlibertas.com/a-lesson-for-america-in-polands-rise-and-ukraines-fall

And here are WSJ readers replies (letters) still visible
link: online.wsj.com/articles/different-pasts-and-different-paths-for-poland-ukraine-letters-to-the-editor-1409948688

Hey Buddy, I am with you in thinking for myself.
How about you posting these forums www. yadda yadda you brag of, so "we" can decide for ourselves if this one is the worst.

My guess is it/they will not be in English and most likely be in Ruski propaganda.
Bets, anyone bets ? Holding my breath.................Pffffffft !

No one knows for sure, Jon, but it is definitely in hundreds. Chechnia was occupied by Russia since 1840s (if I am not mistaken) and the fights don't stop even today. It is important to develop the alternative energy sources and not let Russia get illegally the Northern resources and this monstrous and incongruous terrorist of a country will break up into pieces from within. The only thing that holds it is not nuclear weapons, but oil and gas.

Its much more complicated then that.
When the winter comes things will hopefully slow down, talks can be made, and maybe there will be an agreement.
Do you think anyone is willing to waste gas on some silly war when they are freezing their buts in the cold?
I don't see this conflict ending this year.

I see the rebels made some major victories lately, a cease fire was agreed on and the Ukrainians are on the move.

poor Ukrainians oppressed by bad Russians:
Lenin - really mixed, but Chuvash/Kalmyk/Jewish/German mostly.
Stalin - Georgian
Krushev - Russian/Ukranian, but really favored Ukraine during his rule.
Brezhnev - Ukranian
Andropov - Russian/Jewish
Cherenko - Russian/Ukranian
Gorbachev - Russian/Ukranian
soviet chief of staff
Trostky ->Jew (from Ukraine).
Frunze -> Russian/Romanian.
Voroshilov -> Russian/Ukrainian.
Timoshenko -> Ukrainian.
Bulgnanin-> Russian.
Zhukov -> Russian.
Malinovsky -> Ukrainian/Karaite (Crimean people)
Grechko -> Ukrainian
Ustinov -> Russian (?)
Sokolov -> Russian.
Yazov -> Russian (?).
Even Baluyevsky Ukrainian
Year Communist Party members and candidates to membership
Ukrainians Russians Others
1922 54,818 23.3% 53.6% 23.3%
1924 57,016 33.3% 45.1% 14.0%
1925 101,852 36.9% 43.4% 19.7%
1927 168,087 51.9% 30.0% 18.1%
1930 270,698 52.9% 29.3% 17.8%
1933 468,793 60.0% 23.0% 17.0%

Only a million of them left due to the tragic oppression under the Czarist Empire, the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation. A warning sign of what the Putinists are capable of.

For the love of Christ, gregy, can you please stop with the utter stupid rantings? The NKVD hasn't existed since the 1940s and most certainly wouldn't be called the NKVD in Urkainian anyway.


It means that even though school has started again, gregy still hasn't managed to ask his teacher what the word 'junta' means. I have tried telling him that a democratically elected government led by a democratically elected president very simply cannot be a junta but he seems unable to get his head round that rather simple fact.

it only show your ignorance.if you read news, Ukrainian Junta Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey has announced the creation of a Special Service, similar to a counterintelligence organization that existed during Josef Stalin's rule, to deal with subversive elements in the Ukrainian military. The organization would be "similar to SMERSH(special NKVD unit)

rferl.org/content/smersh-ukraine-heletey-counterintelligence/26564677.html


several hundreds of thousands Russians murdered by them.or run for their lives

even in 60-ties there were 50% Russians ethnic living in Chechnya, nowdays 1.9%
30 times less

Pretty please, gregy: ask your teacher to explain the word 'junta' to you at school tomorrow.


The source you link to does not say that SMERSH was a special NKVD unit. The reason it does not say that is because the author of the article is not utterly retarded. One of the ways we can tell that he is not utterly retarded is that he does not claim that SMERSH was a special NKVD unit.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH

In addition to GUKR-NKO SMERSH directorate, two additional independent SMERSH units were established:

SMERSH division of Soviet Navy, subordinate to People's Commissar Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov.
SMERSH department of NKVD, subordinate to Lavrentiy Beria.

On 14 April 1943, the State Defense Committee (GKO), chaired by Stalin, ordered another split of the People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs Main Directorate for State Security (GUGB/NKVD) into three organisations:

People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD) which ran the secret police responsible for political repression;
People's Commissariat for State Security (NKGB) which acted as a secret police, intelligence, and counter-intelligence force throughout World War II;
State Directorate of Counter-Intelligence (GUKR-NKO), also called SMERSH.

The meaning's a clear one.


Two wrongs never make a right, though the more disempowered and terrorised the people, the more they might believe it does. Given the genocide against them, do you wonder why they detest Russia so much?

It's such a pity that you haven't learned to read links before posting them.

SMERSH division of Soviet Navy, subordinate to People's Commissar Nikolay Gerasimovich Kuznetsov.
SMERSH department of NKVD, subordinate to Lavrentiy Beria.
Main Directorate for State Security (GUGB) was split from the NKVD then GUGB/NKVD split into 3 divisions :one of them was State Directorate of Counter-Intelligence (GUKR-NKO), also called SMERSH.

so pitty you unable to understand simple text

Another Moscow resident (interesting house and garden there for you since you've used the word 'ghoul' in this thread) who committed terrible crimes in Ukraine.

moscow resident doesnt mean russian...sole responsibility for holodomor lies on Kaganovitz---Ukrainian.beria was georgian

How nice of you to post that. Can we now conclude that you wish to claim that there is a Soviet Navy unit in the "ukra army"?


Such a pity that you can't stop your ranting for long enough to spell people's names. Anyway, Kaganovich was born in the Russian empire to Jewish parents.

That's so funny Greggy - only a teenager could come out with that weak a response. Have you heard of someone called Vicky Pollard "yes but no but yes". Wera Kostrzewa wasn't Russian either but there's a reason her dacha was next to Uncle Joe's.


Most would say that Stalin was ultimately responsible. Please don't bother reminding us that the leader of Russia was born in Georgia. The President of the US had a Kenyan father and does Olisadebe's place of birth mean he was any less a member of the Polish national team.

wrong..
after 1 chechen war,Chechenya experienced massive wahabis and mujahediins coming into their land..mostly sponsored by SA and CIA.theys pressed to create caucasus caliphate and impose sharia law.it met massive dissagreemant and thus chechen pro russian movement started creating.like vostok or kadyrowcy.Kadyrow himself was hero in 1-st Chechen war,fighting against Rrussia.switched side and supported Russia with massive population support to this day.

all this due to chechens majority despised islamic fanatics mujahedins and sharia law.also,Crime,terrorism,drug smuggling,kidnappings and finally aggression towards Dagestan.
Kadyrov openly pro russian has massive support in chechenya today,Grozny is beautifull country and massive crime terrorism and drugs problems almost disappeared.
grozny:
does cities "liberated" by american looks the similar?baghdad,beyrut,Kabul?


Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents in the village of Kabany, Radomyshl uyezd,Kiev Governorate
Poland was part of russian empire,it doesnt mean that poles were ethnic russian back then.
you simply have no understanding of concept and difference of citizenship and ethnic

• 
  Grozny
  

That doesn't help your argument about Russian oppression of brave Ukraine.


Yup, Vicky Pollard.


Greggy, the first time Russia made war on Chechnya, and for most of the history of Russian oppression and genocide in that region, neither Saudi Arabia nor the CIA existed.

Soviets not Russians..is that so difficult to understand the difference?Russian in ethnicity,most soviet leaders come from outside Russian ethnic.
don't blame Russian people for soviet crimes.


sure,as a Pole i understand Russian imperialism and oppression,from history.but this is not Russian invention.state grow strong and big they tend to oppress another,its almost a rule worldwide.at least in the past.

Poland itself when got big and strong committed enormous crimes even in Russia.during times of trouble russia lost up to 30% population,mainly due to Polands invasion and famines that comes after.read about lisowski cavalry,and what terrific crimes they committed in Russia.and poles are proud of them.

Yes Greggs, it is both difficult and misleading, since the overwhelmingly politically, militarily and economically dominant component of both the Soviet Union and it's predecessor the Russian Empire is, was and ever shall be Russia.


It isn't some genetic thing, you know, or passed by osmosis to people who have barszcz on Wigilia. Anyway, when has Chechnya ever been


when they have historically been (and still are) victims of enormous repression and their land is today firmly under the Putinist thumb?

+1
I think some of his claims are somewhat pasty.

its not genetic of course.sometimes takes one crazy or overambitious leader sitting in strong state thron and you get genocides.
as for Chechen strong,were they not become part of mongol empire after alans got destroyed?cant say mongol empire was peaceful and not committing genocides

Chechens? Mostly hill tribesmen who had something that others wanted.

I agree about crazy leaders and would add that economics and nationalism usually play a big part.

???????

Russians (Russian: русские, russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Russia,[33] who speak the Russian language
ethnic group, is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience.[1][2] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, myth of origins, history, homeland, language (dialect), or even ideology, and manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.

most soviet leaders and ppl in power were not ethnic russians..lots of jews,ukrainians,poles,balts,georgian.ect..
soviet union had like 50 ethnic group within its borders,and leaders come from all part of soviet union...

Kaganovich was a Russian citizen and ethnically Jewish; he most certainly was never Ukrainian.

finally some true from you...
nevertheless blaming today's ethnic Russian people for his wrongdoing is still silly

Catherine the Great was German and that does not make her any the less a Russian Empress. Premier Tusk has Kaszub and German roots and that doesn't make him any the less Polish. Zirinovsky is of Jewish roots and that equally doesn't make him any less Russian. The current oppressor in the Ukraine - Putin - is (whatever his roots are) the leader of Russia and furthermore a leader who has expressed regret at the decline of the Soviet Union and the. Russian hegemony in the region.

He was no less of a Russian because he was Jewish (although I do understand that your ilk often have problems with the concept that people can be, for example, Polish and Jewish at the same time).