Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

do i hear more hypocrisy? can you answer me simple question?whose territory is Kosovo?
donbass belong to donbass people,who dwelled there for many generations,,,there is nothing there that belong to bunch of criminal fascist from kiev

You can call it whatever you want


That's not part of this discussion


Donbass is part of Ukraine, no matter how much you are trying to tell us otherwise.

Representative from Ukrainian Poles condemning Polish politicians who support current government in Kiev, stating that there should be no support for government who pursues nationalistic policies towards Polish minority and worships Bandera who is responsible for murder of Poles. She also talks about various forms of repressions facing Poles under Banderist Ukraine today(for example trying to stop religious ceremonies, banning discussions about murder of Poles in Ukraine). She says that Poles in Lviv are desperate for any support, and don't receive any from Polish government, and that Ukrainians are abusing Polish Charter to gain entry into Poland.

kresy.pl/publicystyka,wywiady?zobacz/maria-pyz-pakosz-kraj-w-ktorym-szanuje-sie-zbrodniarzy-to-chory-kraj
cda.pl/video/126681db/Polka-mieszkajaca-na-Ukrainie

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totally not nazi azov battalion ,not nazi saluting, democracy freedom fighters,during drill,training to gain combat experience in order to protect civilized europe from donbass hordes:

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=SFbq0F68YIA&x-yt-cl=84503534

any proof on the authenticity of this video? Or should we just take your word for it that the people jumping around in this video are in fact members of the Azov battalion?

you got azov battalion insighna on one of those guys shirt,,even written azov on it

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I knew you would say that which made me actually question myself as to why i would bother responding to your post. But i did anyway so here go......

How long do you think it would take me to have one of those T-Shirts made and shipped to me? My guess would be 3 working days, perhaps even quicker if i pay for express shipment.

you see, in your post from 7.38pm today, you mentioned this:


Now, not even two hours later you post a link to a video that is meant to show us the "fascist Azov battalion" and your explanation is that "the guy wears the T-Shirt of the Azov battalion" so it must be authentic. I am impressed!

good point.
i would take this with a bit of suspition maybe..if not for the fact that azov been saluting and marking themselves with nazi symbols constantly.

there are thousands images and videos showing those ***** with nazi salutes and such.
dont try to make this "putin propaganda" they dont even hide it themselves and are proud of their nazi affiliation


and there is hypocrisy from you again....you believe that seps bombed mariupol base os simple statement from known kiev pathological liers yet here you have doubts regaardin visual evidence here

Actually, no, i believe that the separatists shelled Mariupol because they have been advancing towards the city for quite some time now, despite the agreed ceasefire. Mariupol is a very strategic city for the separatists, it was only a matter of time before they would try to take it.

On the Ukrainian side however, i can not see any reason as to why they would shell their own held territory specially not when, and i believe i have mentioned this before, they are struggling to bring a large proportion of Mariupol's inhabitants on to their side.

me too to be honest ,i think that seps did this,but everything is possible...kiev would have massive pr gain from this false flag...and i been reading some local people posts and videos who blame Ukrainian soldiers for that.but propaganda on both sides and blameing each other is a norm in this conflict...so who knows for sure what happens.

as i mentioned before...this bus blown up 2 weeks ago,after this incident poroshenko waged offensive,,later interview with the driver of this bus appeared,he claim shells were coming from ukrainian direction.

apparently if we believe him,,ukrainian army attacked bus and its own soldiers to gain PR and support for offensive.
i dunno for sure...what i know for sure,this goverment is capable of cynical murdering of people for political gains.....donetsk airport sacrificing soldiers for example

The ceasefire agreement gave the airport to the separatists yet Kiev forces never honoured that agreement. They launched an attack, announced by shelling civilian areas, and claimed to have cleared rebels from the airport. As It turned out there was no call for debate at the UN until the rebels shelled and killed people in civilian areas. There was no call for UN debate when the Nazis attacked the people of Mariupol or burned the people in Odessa. The private battalions didn't "liberate" the airport yet again they were dictating Kiev policy by not honouring the Minsk agreement.

The rebels mimicked the actions of the coup those people complained that some were shot in counter actions yet they have shelled civilians killing hundreds if not thousands for doing exactly what they did.

The biggest own goal was the Rada passing laws not only stopping pensions to Ukrainian people but freezing bank accounts of anyone living in those areas. They have introduced pass laws, stopped medical supplies and doctors wages, suspended all help to Ukrainian people in those areas. That is one sure way to ensure that you turn people against you.

Any political movement needs to bring as many people with it as possible, from day one the coup leaders have done the exact opposite.

Are you able to point me to the part of the Minsk protocol that states that Donetsk airport has to be surrendered to separatist troops? Donetsk airport lies right in the middle of the two control lines, de facto in no man's land.

zn.ua/UKRAINE/minskiy-memorandum-otdaval-doneckiy-aeroport-boevikam-dnr-dokument-164967_.html

In Ukrainian, is a press report about the leaked secret agreement. It has been reported upon ( though tucked away) in several English language places, the Kiev post is one the Guardian is another. Use google to find the reports however the news was not well received in Ukraine and has been debated. The jist is that those breaching Minsk had been holding Kiev to ransom something the Nazis have been doing from day one.

I forgot to add above that the Kiev regime cracking down and preventing Journalists from reporting on the war is becoming more draconian.

You did indeed forget to add..........that a buffer zone was meant to be created, which meant that rebels had to move any heavy artillery outside the center of Donetsk. That did not happen. Donetsk airport was meant to become part of the buffer. By no means was there ever anything said that it would be handed over to the "DNR".

Here is the article in the Kyiv Post you have mentioned.

kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/english-language-translation-of-the-sept-5-cease-fire-memorandum-in-minsk-365460.html

So why would the Ukrainian forces leave Donetsk airport, if the "DNR" troops do not move their equipment out of Donetsk? The ceasefire agreement was not a one - way street.

Care to elaborate as to why you are trying to mislead us by hiding vital points that would help us come to a conclusion?

Minsk did give the airport to the rebels that's the point and the thing that allowed Kiev to be held to ransom. The buffer zone was for heavy weapons not territory, the airport was to be in the rebel zone that's what the protocols say. Kiev breached Minsk by not withdrawing then attacked and were defeated.

Their massive own goal in victimising the people living in the rebel areas is clear and will probably have permanent consequences. If there is a text book example of how not to do something this is probably it.

Incorrect. There was meant to be a buffer zone between the lines of Ukrainian forces controlled territory and separatist controlled territory, a no man's land. Kyiv would have never agreed for the airport to be completely surrendered to the "DNR", basically giving them access to what back then would have still been a useable airport.

I am sure that you would be able to understand that Kyiv simply can not agree on opening further supply lines for the separatists which they effectively would have done, if agreed to give up Donetsk airport.

Basically what you are saying is that the only reason why the very trustworthy separatists have annulled the ceasefire agreement is because Kyiv did not stick to it's commitments. Putin would be proud of you

The agreement is linked to above, the co ordinates marking out the zones of control are listed, when plotted on a map the Airport is on the rebel side, that is what Kiev signed up to and failed to honour. It has nothing to do with the withdrawal of heavy weapons. Kiev has repeatedly lied about what they signed.

The point is that Kiev was held to ransom by those fighting the war which is the exact opposite of the norm. The president/Parliament should control troops not the other way around. Poroshenko signed Minsk but was either unable or unwilling to honour it, I prefere to assume he was unable to honour his commitment.

The disgraceful laws passed by the rada discriminating against the people of the Donbass, limiting press freedom and freezing their bank accounts are another set of examples of how not to go about winning hearts and minds.

What should Kyiv do? Perhaps double the pensions of the ones running through the street of Donetsk shouting "Rossiya"? You still don't seem to understand that if it was not for the separatists, there wouldn't be any of these laws. Are you unable or unwilling to grasp, that everything that is happening in Donbass now is because some people thought it would be a great idea to take up arms and take over cities?

That is exactly what the coup people did.

There was no need to introduce those laws, the old, the infirm, the young and those in institutions are really suffering. Money is not being paid and what ever money they had has been frozen by Kiev. That is a great way to win hearts and minds.

trust.org/item/20150123111939-zkf84/?source=fiTheWire

Ukraine should honour its commitments to all Ukrainian people, doing anything less than that is a massive own goal.

Yes, after the draconian laws were intoduced by the Don from Donbass. You keep forgetting small details and then mention laws which lead to something, forgetting completely why it has come to all of this.

Do you think that if Yanukovich would have "honoured his commitment to all Ukrainian people", respected democracy and human rights, there would have been a Euromaidan, a "coup" and now the conflict in the east of Ukraine. I hardly think so.

You need to start from the very beginning to completely understand. Not from where it suits you!

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 3:

- Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Does Yanukovich shelled residental blocks of cities while it was in power? The ones who come to a real power after them (I'm not sure that it is Poroshenko) done in daily, for months...

Mobs were trying to dictate economic policy by occupying buildings the rebels in the east copied those tactics if it is correct for one set of people to occupy buildings why is it not correct for another set of people?

Its worth discussing more recent events like the laws introduced by the Rada targeting the people Kiev claims as its own. There is no point discussing the coup as you have said that there was no other way there by sweeping all legitimacy aside. The same argument is used by those justifying the annexation of Crimea or anything else that doesnt have legitimacy it's a childish argument that goes nowhere.


Poroshenko was elected president but he is held hostage by events in the east that's why he keeps making contradictory statements.

Absolute nonsense. Those "mobs" only came out after the peaceful protest of the students in favor of signing the Association Agreement was brutally disbursed by Berkut on the night of the 30th November. After that, it was not about the AA anymore, it was against the regime.

As i said, start from the very beginning, then work your way towards more recent events. It seems that you need to educate yourself a bit more on the topic you are trying to have an argument about.

I'm not trying to have an argument about anything, I want to understand why someone would use such poor logic. "there was no other way" is the argument of first resort of every despot which is compounded by denying the same argument to others. I did say there was no point discussing those events here as there is no consistency of thought.

The simple point is that if Kiev claims those people as Ukrainian they should treat them the same as all other Ukrainians freezing bank accounts is discriminatory and vindictive it will achieve the opposite result Kiev professes it wants.

Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi...

Double standards as it is...

It is OK for kosovar albanians to cut the motherland of Serbian nation from Serbia and declare independent state. "Democratic countries" decided that right of self-determination of majority on some territory should prevail over principles, declared in Helsinki Accords.

But... The same is NOT OK for russians, living on former russian lands that was handed to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922 (Novorossia) or Kruschev in 1954 (Crimea).

Because my dear friend Barney, it is easy for you to say "due process was not followed" from the comfort of your own sofa, somewhere in western Europe, probably eating a packet of crisps and down a coke while you are sharing your wisdom with us.

Because you did not have to endure corruption, lawlessness, random arrests of the streets by police for ransom money to be paid by the family members, rape with the rapists walking free although they were clearly identified (money talks), simple human rights violations like cutting freedom of speech and at the end of it all, the draconian laws. You defend a "president" that managed to build a mansion with park and own zoo, a car park with a worth that could feed a whole Ukrainian oblast for a year and his very own private army that would just simply knock everyone and everything out of the way that would be uncomfortable.

It is because you did not have to live in this country, it is very easy for you to sit on your warm sofa and write "due process was not followed" while you simply forget that he actually fled the country. Yes, he fled, whether you like it or not. First supposedly to Kharkiv but it seemed that none of his party members welcomed him at the party's conference that very weekend. Then off to Donetsk - Mariupol - Odessa - Crimea and finally off to Rostov on Don where he made his first appearance again. You sit there, argue that it was a coup because you do not know what it was like to live in that country at the time (and don't tell me that nonsense again about your family - even the people in Donbass say can not stand Yanukovich after they found out what he did). You argue that "due process should have been followed", that not matter what, the "the law must be upheld" and you do that while you live in a country that honors your human rights. Yet, i bet you are one of those people who call the human rights watch line every time you have to wait in line at Tesco for too long.

Now away you go and watch more Russia Today. It has done you and your ability to think outside your own four walls very well.


Once again, you have to have to some knowledge about the build up to what became the Kosovo conflict as well as the conflict in Donbass now, in order to form an educated opinion. "Russians living on former Russian land" is nothing more but propaganda spread by the very same people who execute their own folks for stealing two shirts out of a house in Slavyansk.

I've no idea what you are ranting about....

It appears that you cant handle someone having a slightly different opinion.
I oppose Russian destabilisation and annexation of Ukraine I dont like Putin and I never read RT, you seem unable to deal with different opinions and appear to have a very short fuse hence the rants.

Try to form a coherent argument so far you have not done so.

Barney, I think that you know very well what i am ranting about. You do not have a different opinion, you have none. You simply write about a topic that you seemingly do not know much about. Yet you keep repeating "due process was not followed". That is not an opinion, that is simply uneducated nonsense.

You will find that if you are able to bring substantial arguments to the table and also answer to arguments brought to the table by the other party, I am more than happy to engage into a discussion with you. Up until now, you still have not answered to my repeated mentioning of the draconian laws that were introduced by Yanukovich just days before he got ousted. You just kept repeating your nonsense about "due process". That is not a base for an argument nor does it show that you actually did your homework on the subject at hand. Anyone with any affiliation to Ukraine, anyone who has actually spend some time there would lose the plot by your ignorant way of arguing.

Earlier you mentioned "Mobs were trying to dictate economic policy by occupying buildings " . Even that point of yours was quickly silenced by facts about how Euromaidan started.

As I said, you do not have a different opinion, you have none.

Unfortunately I don't, for example what relevance has my family to this disagreement? Or any of the other parts of your incoherent rants
Due process is important because without it one doesn't have legitimacy. You may not think it's important but it is the basis of constitutional law, I'll give you a different example, Putin didn't follow due process when he annexed Crimea. Its no good complaining that Yanukovich didn't obey the law then ditching that argument when it comes to your guy.

The behaviour of the Ukrainian authorities towards their own citizens is disgraceful, vindictive and counterproductive. Your Bombastic words mean nothing, you need to calm down and realise that not every counter opinion is an attack. And that not all your opinions are correct.

The relevance is in the start of the conflict. Unless you are able to understand how it all started, you will never be able to comprehend the full scale of it. You can not even recall the start of Euromaidan properly. How will you be able to form a proper argument without the knowledge of the beginnings of this conflict?

You can keep calling me incompetent, you can try to ridicule my arguments by saying that they have no grounds but unless you are actually making an effort to look at everything that has happened in Ukraine since Yanukovich became president, you will never be able to join a discussion about the conflict in Ukraine.

I can only keep saying it. You have to start at the beginning. Whether or not you choose to do so is up to you.