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European News Thread

Rich Mazur
23 Jul 2018  #211

You USians don't like Merkel, does that mean she is right?

There is no symmetry here. Just as there was no symmetry in who had to save whose ass in the past.

Somehow, European idiocies always tend to morph into American liabilities.
Bratwurst Boy
23 Jul 2018  #212

America hated Hitler....he must have been totally right!
cms neuf
23 Jul 2018  #213

America did not save Germany or Poland or Britain during the war.
Rich Mazur
23 Jul 2018  #214

Yes, it did. Or, maybe it was France...

But I appreciate how cutely you narrowed it down to 'during the war'.
cms neuf
23 Jul 2018  #215

Germany - bombed it to smithereens and deposed the govt

Poland - signed off the disastrous Soviet takeover

Britain - had already prevented a German invasion in 1940
Rich Mazur
23 Jul 2018  #216

OK, if you can defend yourself without the US, why the hell are we paying for that fossil, NATO? Yeah, I know, NATO is for our own good.

Germany: The US saved Germany from its criminal rulers by hanging them. Somehow, the German people didn't have enough balls to pull this off.

Poland: The USSR liberated Poland in part thanks to the American assistance to Stalin and by tying up German divisions in the West. Directly? No.

Britain: Tell it to the Americans who died from the German U-boats while trying to deliver stuff to the Brits.

And, then, those billions the US sent to Europe after the war was over so that Europe would not starve.
cms neuf
23 Jul 2018  #217

Yes NATO is for the US good too

No idea why Russians complain so much about the cost to the US taxpayer
Rich Mazur
23 Jul 2018  #218

It's because Russia owns the US and Trump is an FSB agent. Or maybe GRU. I am not sure.

That is why he trusts Putin more than he does the CIA.
24 Jul 2018  #219

I doubt in stories of Trump being Russia`s agent, just because Trump underlines necessity of good relations with Russia. Trump is rather realistic. Also spot his stance on EU and China. Perfectly realistic stance. Or take Pope. Pope Francis also have perfect relations with Putin and Russia. Does it make Pope Russia`s agent? No, not for sure. Simple, at this era, Russia plays positive role in the world. That`s how some circles see Russia. Its just that.
Rich Mazur
24 Jul 2018  #220

Russia is just a convenient excuse and a punching bag. I am so glad that Trump doubled down after Helsinki and is planning to invite Putin to Washington. If the only outcome is giving Hillary a fatal case of aneurysm and a stroke, it will be worth the expense.
24 Jul 2018  #221

Sure, Putin have use in internal USA affairs and in global affairs.

But, maybe not best term to tell `at this era, Russia plays positive role in the world`. Actually, Russia is now main force of balance in the world. It is so because main confrontation occurring between USA and China. Both, USA and China understand that Russia must give balance to it. That is the reason for Trump to have special kind of access to Putin. Western Europe tried to prevent this situation and that wasn`t realistic. So, Trump putting western Europe in its place, showing western Europe how becoming increasingly irrelevant in global relations.
Rich Mazur
24 Jul 2018  #222

After Germany deliberately castrated itself after the war, the vision of Europe standing up to Russia is a vision of a battalion of French poodles standing up to the Russian superdogs from Siberia. Not a pretty picture. Hence, all those snarky comments how the US is abandoning its 'leadership' role, meaning: US, please keep your balls here 'cause we ain't got none of our own.
cms neuf
24 Jul 2018  #223

It did not willingly castrate itself - it was subject to a series of peace treaties of which the USSR and US were signatories and the main drafters. This was followed by occupation which from the Soviets only ended when they went bankrupt.

Superdog ? Well I suppose they are OK at knocking out a few ageing tanks in Chechnya or Ossetia. Just as the US is apparently an invincible power that took 10 years to get a goalless draw in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Fact is that if we take out nukes then neither big army is really effective against small well organized militias so god knows how they would get on fighting in Europe with its mountains, forests and towns. Its also evident that the military victory is only half the battle and that without a political plan then fighting will go on for years (that is what will happen in Syria).
Rich Mazur
24 Jul 2018  #224

Russia vs France? Are you trying to be funny? How about Russia vs Italy? Even funnier.

There is nothing that keeps Germany from amending its constitution and become a major power. But first Germany would have to see a shrink to get rid of the gilt complex and immediately get a pair. Once that is done, it should set an example for the other Euro weasels what national borders and the preservation of Germanic culture is all about. Or at least try. And that comes from a Polish guy who has very few reasons to love Germany. Still, Germany is the single, most important part of Europe so it might just as well be a major power player and remember that fear is cheaper than love. Hiding in Uncle Sam's underwear is not what proud nations do.
cms neuf
24 Jul 2018  #225

Took 10 years in Afghanistan to achieve nothing and a few stinger missiles to persuade the USSR to pull out. Why would I walk with mountainous Italy be any easier?

When is your coffee break maybe you can ask one of the guys hanging around on crutches outside whether Afghanistan was an easy job? He will probably disabuse you of your notion that war is part of some game.
24 Jul 2018  #226

Not a pretty picture.

No, not at all. Very ugly.

Hence, all those snarky comments how the US is abandoning its 'leadership' role, meaning: US, please keep your balls here

That reminds me how Trump told to leaders of Baltic states to have good and normal relations with Russia, whenever possible. Trump is sane. Why would USA receive penetration because Baltics likes to f*** Russia. That time is behind us. Others enjoy and USA pays. USA don`t like that kind of sex.
Rich Mazur
24 Jul 2018  #227

He will probably disabuse you of your notion that war is part of some game.

Afghanistan was never a war. Stalingrad was war. When wars are wars, not feel-good police actions plus social workers plus school builders, wars can be won. Just ask Germans.

Trump is sane. Why would USA receive penetration because Baltics likes to f*** Russia.

Thanks for bringing a good dose of sanity to this forum.

If not f***, at least rattle.
cms neuf
24 Jul 2018  #228

Ok - so maybe only pitched battles like Austerlitz count ? Afghanistan was a war alright - a Soviet invasion with choppers, tanks, planes and infantry. And it was a defeat - at the hands of tribesmen with neckbeards and rags on their heads.
Rich Mazur
24 Jul 2018  #229

...are called civilians. Any action against civilians, regardless of the hardware involved, is a police action. Wars are against the state. Such as in Germany in 1945.

But I may be wrong. In fact, the signing of unconditional surrender in 1945 never happened. Instead, large groups of German tribesmen ran for the hills and fought bravely until the Soviets got tired and, after suffering huge losses, turned tail and ran home to mother Russia like the cowards that they are.

I apologize for my previous so totally false posts on this matter.
cms neuf
24 Jul 2018  #230

And this is the issue - there will probably be no more large scale state to state wars where upon surrender the losing side accepts a list of demands. Guerilla wars will carry on indefinitely - Iraq is a perfect example. It took the US army about 2 weeks to get to Baghdad and knock down that statue but they were still there a decade later, with ever diminishing returns and a tragic stream of coffins offloaded in Virginia every night.

Which is why a lot of Putin and Trump's posturing is a waste of time and intended for their low IQ public - two bald men fighting over a comb ( or a combover in the case of the Orange Idiot).
Bratwurst Boy
25 Jul 2018  #231

There is nothing that keeps Germany from amending its constitution and become a major power....

I wonder about that....imagine...Germany being led by someone with "balls", someone who twitters what he thinks of everybody and likes to show them the finger. Someone who builds an army putting the old Wehrmacht to shame, someone who even breaks treaties to get his hands on nukes...someone who changes the EU into something of a "My way or the highway" - club....you get the gist!

How do you think the relationships inside Europe and Europe/US would develop (with Trump still in power)?
Rich Mazur
25 Jul 2018  #232

It would develop very well. The US would be relieved to know that Germany is powerful enough to stand on its own militarily. The specifics how to achieve this noble goal would be decided by Germany itself, of course.

Why did you even mention showing anybody the finger? All I am saying is that Germany should make every effort to be as independent of the US as possible and you are bringing up Trump for the reason that has nothing to do with my point. Once you achieve this, you can tell the US to go home or somewhere else. I never suggested that you should copy his habits and style.

And if you want to keep your treaties you can keep your treaties. And, yes, I do want the US to get out of all the lopsided and not affordable obligations it so foolishly signed on to without the sunset clause. Like the disappearance of the USSR.
Bratwurst Boy
25 Jul 2018  #233

Why did you even mention showing anybody the finger?

Because that's what leaders with "balls" generally do. They are no teamplayers and like to show off for the audience at home. Cooperation, common treaties and compromises are not high on their agenda.

It's some kind of "systemic"...having "balls" and showing other countries/leaders/enemies at home/ the finger.

And that is the big difference between the US and Germany. We are not our own continent with only Canada and Mexico as neighbours. We might be able to become a major power, but we are surrounded by alot of suspicious neighbours which would isolate us politically very quickly if we would do a Trump. It would kill us economically next...a beefed up military would be of no use at all.

Our weapon is diplomacy and cooperation inside the EU...that had made us wealthy, stable and successful like never before in our history. There is a lesson in that.

Yes, we could go it alone, just not for very long nor very successful.
25 Jul 2018  #234

You Krauts have been on a free ride since the rebuilding after WWII and your little parade stops now with Trump:)

Lesson learned indeed.
Bratwurst Boy
25 Jul 2018  #235

You Krauts have been on a free ride since the rebuilding after WWII and your little parade stops now with Trump:)

Define "free ride" please!
25 Jul 2018  #236

Im just messing with you BB I like Germans, have a few drinking buddies from there and was even a bartender at Zum Duetchen Eck a really nice restaurant in Chicago, until they sold it and turn it into yuppie condos..but thats ancient history.
Rich Mazur
25 Jul 2018  #237

Define "free ride" please!

Nothing easier. Having the US stand guard, relieved Germany of spending money on its military to the extent that would have been necessary without the US standing guard. The unspent money was invested elsewhere to make Germany an economic success and an American competitor.

See how simple things can be when explained simply? I like simple and so do the 63 million Americans who listened to Trump and voted for him.

So that you will not feel bad, the American stupidity in this regard also benefits Japan and Korea exactly the same way.

Bottom line: the US - stupid, Germany - smart. And Trump is 'an orange idiot' and evil because he does not like the arrangement.
25 Jul 2018  #238

A careful student of history, I've always contended (as have others, I'm sure) that Germany actually "won" the war as much as the US "won" the peace.

Look at the facts, although I heatedly disagree with Joker that Germany and Germans have had anything even close to a "free ride" since '45 in any sense of the word, they are so far superior to us Yanks, it's almost ludicrous to debate! They learn foreign languages (including their own) more successfully than we, their economy and industry aka high technology often leaves us in the dark, and their medical personal appear to have retained a general standard which those practitioners wish to impart to the average citizen.

New Deal America up 'till round about 1964 or so? I'd have to have said the US was the best of all possible worlds. Today? Hey, not everybody is or can be (or should even try) to be as rich as Beyonce!

25 Jul 2018  #239

@Rich Mazur

I like simple and so do the 63 million Americans who listened to Trump and voted for him.

I really hope they do not think like that, because it would reveal a gross ignorance of history. Germany spend enough money during the cold war to field a very impressive conventional army. It is only hypoteticam what might have happened if the Americans had withdrawn, but it is most likely that Germany would have made an agreement with France to use French nuclear weapons as protection. They certainly would not have increased the conventional forces, because without America, there would not have been any hope for victory in a conventional war anyway. And since Germany had no interest in power projection outside of Europe, it would not have spend money on such things, unlike the UK and France. In short, Germany was certainly not "free-riding".

And that leaves out that protecting Western Europe was in America's best interest, since it was clear from the beginning, due to the economic realities at the time, that the side who controlled Europe would win the Cold War. The USA won the Cold War and enjoyed a short hegemony afterwards. It is not Europe's fault that the USA did so little with this.
25 Jul 2018  #240

nobody likes Merkel, apart form Germans and the French.

This is not quite so, Dolno. You probably don't remember the interview that Our Dearest Leader Chairman Jarosław Kaczyński gave to the German press some short time before the general election in Germany. Asked about whom he would like to see as a next Bundeskanzler, Our Great Leader said without slightest hesitation that it would be in the best Poland's interest if Angela Merkel became Bundeskanzlerin in the result of that election.

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