Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 3

And those they did release were heavily manipulated to try and conceal the extent of their fall.


Belarus, Nicaragua, North Korea, Eritrea, Myanmar, Serbia?

Just an off the cuff guess.


Of course not. Thos countries that can stockpile it have done so, some other countries have North Sea Gas, and there are still imports from elsewhere.

There may be a slowdown in German industry however they only have themselves to blame for over-reliance on r*SSia.

Syria and Cuba instead of Serbia and Myanmar

Serbia are starting a frantic backpedalling - they want normal relations with the EU

BS. you are crapping like a Stegosaurus dinosaur now. hahahaha

RuSSists don`t control anything in Ukraine - after they had lost a few dozen planes, their pilots learnt the lesson - flying over Ukrainian territory equals the shot down.

Crnogarac3 said;
And let's not forget that Russia controls the skies over ukropia


Exactly.

Russians have been incapable of controlling the skies over Ukraine for monrhs!
You are so deluded that I think you must be watching nothing but Russian propaganda.
Wake up!

Actually, it`s not. It perfectly realises the reality but still tries to influence the public opinion with its lies. That is its job, after all.

...now it's war!


nytimes.com/2022/09/16/business/germany-takes-over-russian-oil-subsidiary-securing-control-of-key-refinery.html

Berlin placed the German subsidiary of Russia's Rosneft in a trust, a step aimed at maintaining energy supplies....

@Bratwurst Boy
This is a move I really like and its one every country should imitate. Take everything Russian owned that is in a foreign country and hold on to it as collateral for Ukraine reparations, or just take it since thats what Russia did to western property in Russia.

All the western hyper media coverage of Europe freezing is complete bull$hit. No one is freezing except Ukrainians. Gas has been stockpiled for the last six months. Everyone I know in Poland has bought more blankets and has said they will just keep the heat lower, or they have loaded up on firewood and coal. It is an inconvenience and nothing more for most people. For some industry, sure they have to cut back, and profits will be reduced a little, but thats it. CNBC and everyone else is blowing this out of proportion like they did with COVID.

....but it's not so much about civilians freezing or not, in Germany whole industries are at stake, lacking energy could shatter our economy....and that can't be helped with a blanket more or such!

There is price to pay for everything in life, BB. The galactic stupidity of relying too much on Russian resources (against which Poland repeatedly warned Germany, but who would listen to silly Polacken? *rolls eyes*) will now backfire on Germany immensely. Will it be easy for the Germans? No. Will it be fair? Yes.

The consolation for Germany can be the fact that you will pay only economically whilst Ukrainians are paying with their blood.

@Bratwurst Boy
I understand that, but have to agree with Gefreiter. Germany will pay in their way while Ukraine pays in blood, while Poland pays for being the hub for the military aid, refugees and humanitarian aid. All of Europe pays in one way or another. All of Europe was sleeping at the wheel while Putin built up cash reserves and conned Europe into relying on Russia for LNG and oil. Europe has no one to blame but themselves for thinking Russia would ever change their base way of thinking and acting.

No, that's not the consolation....especially as not only Germany but the whole of Europe will pay when the german industry tanks, we are not on an island in Europe. A Germany busy inwardly will be even less interested with other countries problems....money will be a problem...productions will become problems....other economies are dependent on a well functioning Germany as vice versa.

The real consolation will come in a few years, a decade or so....this crisis will be not "a" turning point but longterm "THE" turning point for our whole economy. There are such points in every countries history, a "before" and an "after"....this crisis will mark the end of the fossils! Germany has had always big plans but the ready availability and cheapness of energy has had the development and restructurizing of a green energy industry/economy definitely hampered and delayed, and in some ways even stopped.

I can't really imagine how a green Germany will look like in a few years, but it will look much different than now....because not only the economy needs to be rebuild, big parts of the society have to be made fit for it. The change will be huge!

No doubt about it.

You are right about the transformation towards green energy. It is the only way for Europe to become really independent from foreign energy sources, and the current crisis will only speed it up. Here's hoping.

*nods*

Some lessons seemingly need to be learnt the hard way....this is one of them!

How so?

Do you still think about Germans as Nazis?

@Bratwurst Boy
They always think about Germans as Nazis or at least as Krauts....but they like to drive Mercedes or BMW.

bekante bierfest 🍻

twitter.com/pirate_baltic/status/1570836639928455168

They do tend to think that they have some sort of right for their industrial sector to continue developing ad infinitum. Putting their eggs in one basket with gas supplies was however a massive own goal; if they are able to wean themselves off r*SSian gas within 6 or 7 months as they say, ther may be hope. This will need huge and swift investment in their nuclear sector from either within or outside the country.

It's quite likely that we'll see a period of managed decline while other technologies develop. It would be good if Poland and Ukraine are at the forefront of that development. About external investment in this case? It would be good if industry in both countries is owned within those countries rather than by companies based elsewhere as has hitherto been the case however I suspect that as with German nuclear powergen there may need to be investment from outside.

....what alternative is there?

A service economy where all producing is outsourced to China?

@Bratwurst Boy
The Nazi party was a cult of personality born out of a loss in WWI and a depression in Germany. It has not always been their way of thinking. I liken it to the Trump movement and in many ways it is very similar. A cult of personality thriving on the mass hysteria. Control the mob and you control the country. Rome new this, and so has every other ruler. I think Germany and its people have paid a heavy and extended price for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers. Rightfully they were punished. Now Germany is a leader in Europe and while everyone will always be wary of a too strong Germany, no reasonable thinking human being would say Nazi's were a way of life or living for Germany for more than the short period in history where it happened.

When was the last time Germany threatened anyone? WWII. They learned. Russia has been threatening people since 1918. It has not worked out for them, and it will not work out for them. More than 100 years of threats and failures, and still they learn nothing and do not change.

Russians have been this way for more than a century. Their thinking and actions have not changed. As a people they have not evolved mentally, economically or politically. The country and the people are the greatest waste of resources and largest failure in the history of mankind to date. North Korea is quickly approaching them though. Even the Taliban have evolved quicker because they recognize they have to or they will be completely left behind.

Not constantly developing.


This is one, however other countries are ahead. As for China; they are hard to undercut and capitalism works very much in their favour.

Globalisation is bringing painful changes, however inward investment from Poland, the U.S. and other states may work out well.

Na ja....I would say the real test would be a strong Germany that "could". Being occupied and cut up after having lost a war shrinks the possibilities to threaten anyone mightily.

Russia was declared a victorious ally...was never occupied, never cut up....so it could and it did!

You yourself said "everyone will always be wary of a strong Germany"....my guess is that a strong Germany will be threatening already only because it exists. *shrugs*

German Soldiers Association (Bundeswehrverband) protests against giving tanks to Ukraine...

wydarzenia.interia.pl/raporty/raport-ukraina-rosja/aktualnosci/news-zwiazek-zolnierzy-niemieckich-ostrzega-przed-przekazaniem-cz,nId,6291663

... they say that it would weaken the German army. They also demand stopping the transfer of Bundeswehr equipment to Ukraine.

@Bratwurst Boy
A strong Germany meaning one that tries to bully other countries outside of being political. Germany and France have been political bullies in the EU along with Brussels. But, most of the EU has long said that Germany should have a stronger military. What is strong or too strong, who knows. As for the division of Germany, Russia may yet be next. There are some pretty simple scenario's that could see Russia broken up into several countries with a much smaller Russia essentially in the western part of the continent. This could be the best thing to happen long term.

Alternative energy sources are just the beginning of the changes to come out of this war. I know my new place will have solar panels for sure. I think most people will be more conscious. Remembering the gas crisis of the 70's in the US, people were forced to change, and more economical cars became the way to go. It was a sea change moment. Those who adapted thrived. This will be the same kind of moment in time. Putin may actually be the one who got the world to react and effect climate change at the same time.

Absolutely! He brought an end to an era...however unwittingly and surely unwillingly.

...and hopefully the end to himself. Ceaușescu was executed on 25th December 1989. Will Putinescu last until 25th December 2022?

It is always the way tyrants' life ends - poison in a bunker, hasty trials and executions, lynch by an angry mob etc. but they never learn, do they? There is always someone who believes he can invade, destroy and commit genocide, and get away with it. Oh, well...

At one point they all were cheered on by hundreds of thousands, even millions....I guess the idea to be lynched by the same people (or their enemies) at one time in the future is unimaginable to them.

*nods*

Exactly. The staggering lack of imagination and inability to learn from history. A propos not learning from history - what's the story with this Bundeswehrverband nonsense (I posted the link earlier)? Poland gave Ukrainians enough tanks to form 1.5 panzer divisions, and Germany would be too weakened if they gave a battalion or two? Doesn't make sense. Maybe your secret service should take a look at this Andre Wuestner guy - he sounds like a Russian asset.

The Bundeswehrverband seems to think exactly that....he warns of a "canibalization" of our troops, can you believe it???

In the debate about tank deliveries to Ukraine , the German Bundeswehr Association warns against "cannibalizing our troops".

"We understand Ukraine's desire for heavy weapons only too well. We can imagine, for example, handing over armored personnel carriers from the stocks of the industry," said association head André Wüstner to the editorial network Germany.

However, from our point of view as a professional association, what is no longer possible is the surrender of weapons and ammunition for the Bundeswehr. Every single delivery leads to a weakening of the Bundeswehr.

André Wüstner, German Armed Forces Association

zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/waffenlieferungen-bundeswehrverband-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html

So, they are not pro-Putin pacifists (heh:), and are not against german weapons for Ukraine per se, but they are seemingly of the same opinion as our defence minister who said that the Bundeswehr just can't give out more armory because they don't have as much anymore to give....believe it or not!

...

"Many in the Bundeswehr fear that this policy of further cannibalization of our troops will have negative effects," added Wüstner. He related this to a "sometimes precarious material operational readiness", the NATO obligations as well as training and practice "as a prerequisite for everything".

Wüstner emphasized: "Our demand is therefore: No further sale of Bundeswehr stocks. And, just as important: Immediate procurement of replacements for the systems that have been sold so far!"

....

Quite a lot of stuff that was given to Ukraine from BW depots was done over military advice. The BW can e.g. not really afford to part with another 2 MLRS yet it ia doing so becaus the government overruled the military.

@BB, Tacitus

So why isn't the equipment you give to Ukraine replaced by your military industry production (4th largest exporter in the world)?