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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 6



Paulina
19 Jun 2023  #1051

"Out of prison" is not the same as "free", in this case. And, suddenly, it can be accused in some sort of parole condition violation and put back into cage. ;)

The thing is he was denied that parole at first:

news24.com/news24/just-in-chris-hani-killer-janusz-walus-denied-parole-20200316

According to the Sunday Times

And where's that link that I asked for?

Yes, it was since kids were part of the villages where napalm was officially authorized.

Authorized by whom? Is there any evidence that the US president gave an order to throw napalm on villages "even if there are civillians inside"?

Tacitus
19 Jun 2023  #1052

Rich as a lawyer defending a murderer.

"Your Honor, my client may be guilty, but he should not be charged because Jack the Ripper did much worse and never ended up in front of the court".

"Your Honor, my client may have raped 10 children but he should not stand trial because some other guy 60 years ago raped 100 but used his influence to get away with it".

This is not going to save Putin nor undermine the case against him.

Velund
19 Jun 2023  #1053

And where's that link that I asked for?

Link is lost (I do not keep records of everything), and I will not spend my time to google it for you. Sorry, but I will not even pretend that I'm sorry. ;)

Paulina
19 Jun 2023  #1054

Link is lost

How convenient :)))

and I will not spend my time to google it for you.

It's on you and in your interest to prove that you're not lying. Because if you don't provide links, I can simply say that you're talking out of your ass or repeating lying propaganda :)

And I asked you for a link, because I actually did google for it and I didn't find anything.

The only recent article related to the Janusz WaluĊ› case that I found is from South African "Sunday Times" (not "The Sunday Times" which is a British newspaper):

timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/news/politics/2023-06-18-poland-wants-walus-to-be-freed-and-repatriated/

But since the access to this article is paid I don't know if the claims which you quoted were made in this article.

It looks like Polish wp.pl wrote about this "Sunday Times" article, but there is no mention here of the claims that you quoted:

wiadomosci.wp.pl/media-w-rpa-polski-rzad-stara-sie-o-repatriacje-janusza-walusia-6910349619165760a

Novichok
19 Jun 2023  #1055

Is there any evidence that the US president gave an order to throw napalm on villages "even if there are civillians inside"?

I don't need to see the order. The presumption is that he knew it and didn't raise hell.

jon357
19 Jun 2023  #1056

Out of prison" is not the same as "free"

It is.

This is not going to save Putin nor undermine the case against him.

Indeed.

And of course the ruzzians never ever admit to wrongdoing.

Link is lost (I do not keep records of everything

Because you're making it up.

Paulina
19 Jun 2023  #1057

I don't need to see the order.

The court would have to see the order though. Or something that would be enough in court.

The presumption is that he knew it and didn't raise hell.

You realise that the same could be said about Putin, right? :)

I suppose it's going to be comforting for a Putinist like you, though, that it is very unlikely, just like it was the case with the US presidents who were in office during the Vietnam war, that Putin will ever stand trial before an international court (or any other court for that matter) for whatever he is or will be charged in the future.

I'd say that the fact that there is an arrest warrant for him by an international court at all is a sign of some progress. Just like the use of napalm in Vietnam got eventually condemned by the society in the US and it led the United Nations to define more constraining legal rules to limit the use of napalm based on Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCCW) adopted in 1980.

Back to the war in Ukraine, please

Novichok
20 Jun 2023  #1058

Quoting RT:

Weapons provided to Ukraine by the US and its allies have either required fixing or had to be cannibalized for parts, the New York Times reported on Monday. Kiev has also complained that equipment worth hundreds of millions of dollars and bought on contract has not yet been delivered.

Not nice. Ukraine should sue the US and its allies in the International Court of Justice.

Tacitus
20 Jun 2023  #1059

Just goes to show how badly Russians are equipped and led since the Ukrainians are still kicking their ass*es.

GefreiterKania
20 Jun 2023  #1060

All Russia has to do now is to drag the war until Donald Trump returns to office. Then Ukraine is well and truly f*cked.

Ironside
20 Jun 2023  #1061

@GefreiterKania
I think you give too much credence to bad rep Trump is painted by the deep state creeps.

jon357
20 Jun 2023  #1062

deep state creeps.

IS, we have to deal in facts not inane conspiracy theories.

the Ukrainians are still kicking their arses.

They really have done very well so far.

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1063

Then Ukraine is well and truly f*cked.

Whoa. Are you no longer a member of the Witnesses of the Ukrainian Counteroffensive Church?

Jon says they "have done very well so far", while Tacitus claims they are "kicking Russian asses". Your analysis seems to run orthogonal to theirs.

One should not immediately conclude from this that you are somehow mentally deficient, however. This is because the Institute for the Study of War, as reported by the Kyiv Independent, also seems to think there is something wrong with this counteroffensive. So wrong, that it may be necessary to "pause" it, and do some more thinking before trying again. This is a strange turn in the ISW's reporting, and not a little bit shocking, after they had been assuring me for a year that "it's fully possible we will see Crimea liberated by this Summer, Fall, Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall...".

Honestly. I'm so confused about who to listen to at this point. The Twitter OSINT brigade represented by Maf, Jon and Tacitus, or the Institute for the Study of War - whose UKR analysis is collated by a Ukrainian girl in her twenties (Natalya Bugayeva)?


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mafketis
20 Jun 2023  #1064

collated by a Ukrainian girl in her twenties

who you want dead.... let's not forget that.....

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1065

who you want dead....

What?

mafketis
20 Jun 2023  #1066

You support the war which is increasingly genocidal (from the russian side) in rhetoric and action (see the dam explosion).

Or is it only Ukrainians in Ukraine that you want dead?

Novichok
20 Jun 2023  #1067

Honestly. I'm so confused about who to listen to at this point

Listen to me, the all-knowing expert on things Russian:

CDL is Russia FOREVER. And:

Ukraine will never be in NATO.

All else is noise.

GefreiterKania
20 Jun 2023  #1068

There's a lot of things wrong with this offensive, and some mistakes made by Ukrainians are difficult for me to understand.

However, as Ukraine is our ally (sort of), I shall not discuss them on an open forum at the moment.

*takes popcorn and continues observing*

Novichok
20 Jun 2023  #1069

and some mistakes made by Ukrainians are difficult for me to understand.

I am here to help.

The US told its useful idiot, Z, to keep at it or no more money for him and his co-traitors. So, consistent with that directive, good Ukrainians keep dying.

I shall not discuss them on an open forum at the moment.

Wise move. In "democratic" Poland, you can get in trouble for being against the war and the refugees. However, if Poland became the 51st state, then the 1st would allow you to speak freely against both.

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1070

some mistakes made by Ukrainians are difficult for me to understand

Don't be too hard on them. There's only so much that is possible on the offensive without cover from the air.

Further - experienced NATO commanders have stated numerous times that a combined arms breaching operation is perhaps the most difficult thing a military can attempt. That's what Mark Hertling said, at least. He served as the Commanding General of United States Army Europe, and the Seventh Army. He also oversaw Armor, Cavalry, planning, operations and training positions, and commanded every organization from Platoon to Field Army.

So this guy says that when it's Americans exercising, 80% of the breach attempts end up in failure. 25-30% casualties are considered "acceptable". This is for the US, with all its air, naval, logistical, and intelligence capabilities.

If Ukraine succeeded it would be nothing short of a miracle. Local NATO brigade as well as the Ukrainians themselves, seem to still be riding the high of Kherson and Kharkov, which are nothing at all like Zaporozhye.

Novichok
20 Jun 2023  #1071

If Ukraine succeeded it would be nothing short of a miracle

They know it but do it anyway because of the instructions from DC and the useful idiot in Kiev.

mafketis
20 Jun 2023  #1072

There's only so much that is possible on the offensive without cover from the air.

Which is why the US needs to close the skies over Ukraine...

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1073

They know it but do it anyway because of the instructions from DC

This really does seem to be the case. I'm not one for conspiratorial thinking, but at this point it is so plain to see that it is hard to call it a "conspiracy". People like Mark Milley or Anthony Blinken kept repeating that "we have transferred enough arms to Ukraine to allow it to be successful in achieving its goals". Clearly, this kept heaping the pressure on the Ukrainians to do something.

Daily there were articles, where "anonymous sources close to the White House", or "anonymous sources close to the Department of Defense", make some noises about how it will be difficult for Ukraine to get more aid if it doesn't do something soon, and does it well.

Don't need to be an important insider to see how the dynamics work in this model.

GefreiterKania
20 Jun 2023  #1074

There's only so much that is possible on the offensive without cover from the air.

Well, that's one thing but what's the story with the way they try to breach minefields? First of all, why aren't they using artillery for that? As far as I can remember we gave them a lot of special ammo explosives made just for the purpose. Also, why aren't they using smoke screens? There were shitloads of smoke ammo sent to them - bloody trains full of it. Even drones would be useless with good smokescreen tactics. They're just pushing mine-clearing tanks ahead (and losing them); no mine-clearing artillery barrages first, no smoke screens. What are the advisers doing? WTF? No... wait... I wasn't supposed to discuss Ukrainian mistakes. Oh, well...

*grabs more popcorn*

GefreiterKania
20 Jun 2023  #1075

I don't know... maybe they came to the conclusion that even with proper tactics they wouldn't be able to conduct a successful counter-offensive, so they made a half-arsed attempt, lost some western stuff to make themselves more credible, and then they will say: "Oh, well - we tried, it didn't work out, let's start peace talks".

This might actually make some sense, if their calculated losses in the actual genuine offensive would be too high to accept. So maybe those "mistakes" weren't mistakes at all.

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1076

First of all, why aren't they using artillery for that?

It seems that what happened was Russian forces surprised the Ukrainians by not fighting along our pre-dug defensive lines. The whole world watched for 6 months as we dug the most comprehensive system of defenses since WW2, and then made the assumption that was where the fight would happen.

It's been two weeks, and Ukrainians are still kilometers away from even the first defensive line. Instead, our forces have been fighting tenacious active defensive battles along the skirmishing line, often followed up with rapid counter attacks. Those mine clearing tanks did not expect to hit a mine for several more kilometers, neither did they expect for artillery to be pre-registered on those positions, and finally they did not expect that every tree line would be teeming with Russians with ATGMs.

So basically, we spent a couple billion dollars digging defensive positions we were not planning to use, all to mislead the Ukrainians. This is what you have to do when Ukraine has access to all Western satellites and recon drones.

Novichok
20 Jun 2023  #1077

Ukraine to get more aid if it doesn't do something soon, and does it well.

That is what every pimp tells his "girls" during morning debriefings.

After so many years on this earth, I know that things are simpler than they appear: somebody dies and somebody makes money. In this case, Ukrainians die so that the US MIC can get even fatter and Russia weaker - a twofer.

Nothing to do with "freedom and democracy". That bs is for Paulina and other naive suckers like her.

Paulina
20 Jun 2023  #1078

In "democratic" Poland, you can get in trouble for being against the war and the refugees.

How? Do enlighten me :)

GefreiterKania
20 Jun 2023  #1079

we spend a couple billion dollars digging defensive positions we were not planning to use, all to mislead the Ukrainians.

Maskirovka of the first order! You cunning Mongolian foxes. ;) Remind me to go to war against you only if totally necessary.

Bobko
20 Jun 2023  #1080

Maskirovka of the first order

For those not familiar with the term Kania mentions:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception#:~:text=The%20Russian%20term%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%20(maskirovka,to%20include%20denial%20and%20deception.


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