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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 9



Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2431

Details of failed Russia-Ukraine peace deal 'revealed' - WSJ
The terms allowed Kiev to seek membership of the EU, but not NATO, according to the outlet

The WSJ claimed that the 17-page document dated April 15, 2022 allowed Ukraine to seek membership of the EU, but not NATO. It also limited the size of Kiev's military and confirmed Crimea as part of Russia, the outlet said.


"The entire negotiation process was terminated by the decision of the Ukrainian side on the order received from the UK," Peskov claimed.

Two questions:

1. Why did 500,000 Ukrainians die or get disabled?
2. Which word in "No NATO in Ukraine" was too hard to understand?

Ironside
4 Mar 2024  #2432

Two questions:

two answers
1. Go FY
2. Go FY
Why are you, Russian apologists and butlers? Move to Russia.
---

Hence 90 percent of Africans support Russia over Ukraine/NATO.

How come they are trying to get to Europe not Russia Hey wrong direction. I think NATO should organize the migration of Africans to Russia. As a humanitarian help!

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2433

Musk questions why NATO still exists
Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk appears to agree with American investor David Sacks, who has argued that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO lost its reason to exist, but decided to embark on an expansion spree to fill the void.


How many times did I say THAT here? Pure genius... Cancer and bureaucracies never die on their own.

1. Go FY

Get a moron pill. I mean to wise up, not to become one.

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2434

Why does the US need NATO?

Why Estonia separating from Russia was good and Donbass separating from Ukraine was very bad?

Ironside
4 Mar 2024  #2435

Why does the US need NATO?

To F you up with a stick!
--

Why Estonia separating from Russia was good and Donbas separating from Ukraine was very bad?

Just because....as you put it, it is Darwin's law whatever it is.

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2436

To F you up with a stick!

You don't have to pretend you are a moron. We already know you are. "We" includes you.

Ironside
4 Mar 2024  #2437

You don't have to pretend you are a moron

You see I got some time to know you and what you are all about and that is what you deserve a battle - moron against moran, itis only fair so don't complain.

Crnogorac3
4 Mar 2024  #2438

I can't even.

This is where the Polish intellectuals have failed, they failed to explain to you and your parents as well as to the rest of the Polish people that America exported Communism into Russia in order to destroy Russia.

The Russian people suffered under Communism equally as the Poles did if not even more.

polanda.com/off-topic/discuss-muslims-jews-buddhist-christians-77767/5/#msg1552130

One of the few Poles who understood this was Adrian, this is why he advocated for Poland to seek more cooperation with Russia, China, India and countries to the East. Sadly he is no longer alive.

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2439

itis only fair so don't complain.

I never complain.
I actually like morons until I get bored with the azholes. Then they go to the gulag aka the ignore list.

America exported Communism into Russia in order to destroy Russia.

Now America is inflicting Marxism on itself.

Sadly he is no longer alive.

I miss this guy...

Tacitus
4 Mar 2024  #2440

@jon357

And has dreadful baggage.

Hardly. Maybe if someone is only used to hearing that word in Hollywood films but it is an entirely normalilitary term that predates WWI.

@GefreiterKania

Unhinged? Hardly

I was being kind. They may not be completely crazy, but it is risky to wager on their sanity and rationality either. We already got burnt when we thought that Putin would be rational enough to not start a full invasion before.

Bratwurst Boy
4 Mar 2024  #2441

Yeah....that was a shock! I remember that well....

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2442

rational enough to not start a full invasion before.

Putin was rational. He had to stop NATO from invading Ukraine.
The irrational morons are the US warmongers who spend 40% of the world's mil budget and their British wh*res, desperate to justify NATO's existence after 1990.

US 800B
China 250B
Russia 80B

So who is an irrational moron?

Bratwurst Boy
4 Mar 2024  #2443

He had to stop NATO from invading Ukraine.

Now the whole Baltic is NATO, with more countries standing in line to become members....with Ukraine next. (Something which was not even in the cards before that invasion!)

For the NATO it works, tell me how did it go for Putin?

mafketis
4 Mar 2024  #2444

Musk questions why NATO still exists

Cause he's an uninformed sperg....

NATO preceded the Warsaw pact (a limp wristed response to NATO) because it was clear that the USSR was a menace to neighboring countries.

NATO stayed in place mostly out of inertia and then because countries bordering russia didn't trust it (for very good reasons).

NATO didn't expand into Poland it was dragged into Poland by successive Polish governments.

Now it's clear that russia is a menace to peaceful countries with the horrible misfortune of being close to it geographically.

Stupid putain-ophiles are russian to amplify Musk's (actually David Sack's) pro-russia takes....

PolAmKrakow
4 Mar 2024  #2445

@mafketis
Please tell me where my thinking fails and how it was much better to wait for an invasion that the US was warning you about for six months.

These leaked documents are damning to Ukraine. Failure to take this deal should result in Z facing a his own criminal case. Sending tens of thousands of men to die that did not need to die because he was Boris's biatch. That is not leadership, that is a failure to lead. Not making the terms known to the Ukraine people and allowing them to decide is criminal.

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2446

For the NATO it works, tell me how did it go for Putin?

Russia has the right to be selective. The Baltics in NATO - OK. Ukraine in NATO - not OK.

The US was selective. Pakistan and nukes - OK. Iraq and nukes - not OK.

Are we OK now?

Sending tens of thousands of men to die that did not need to die because he was Boris's biatch

Perfect.

Bratwurst Boy
4 Mar 2024  #2447

This war is about NATO in Ukraine because Russia said no.

NATO was not in Ukraine before the invasion...and there was absolute no danger for that to happen! (Not in the least because of russophile Germans)

Now on the other hand, thanks to that invasion, NATO will be able to shift it's borders directly onto Russia....thanks to Putin's invasion!

That is a great case of "shooting into ones own foot"....if that is seen as a chess game, Putin lost that piece....no matter if Russia will go back home with the Donbas...NATO will now always be watching from near the next border(s)!

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2448

NATO was not in Ukraine before the invasion...

Russia invaded Ukraine to make sure it would not happen. Was there any other way?

Quoting:

In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective.

In February 2019 the constitution was amended to require governments to seek European Union and NATO membership.


Anything else about Ukraine and NATO?

mafketis
4 Mar 2024  #2449

wait for an invasion

When did you realize the invasion would happen? Many/most thought it was a buildup to be followed by a standdown as had happened a time or two before.

IIRC didn't Bucha come to light during the Turkish meetings (also IIRC the russian sent by putain was not going to settle for anything less than surrender).

How much of Ukrainian territory can they cede to russia and then be safe from future invasion?

What should happen during a future invasion (since you can bet russia will break any agreement it made just like it broke both Minsk agreements)?

Novichok
4 Mar 2024  #2450

Russian troops are in Russia now since CDL is part of the Russian Federation - or self-determination should be deleted from all vocabularies.
This makes Ukraine the aggressor. Russia will be the aggressor when it moves its troops out of CDL and into Ukraine.

Bratwurst Boy
4 Mar 2024  #2451

Anything else about Ukraine and NATO?

Back then? No chance!

Now/in the future....very probable!

Difference: Putin's invasion!

It's very hard to see that as a smart decision with any possibility for success....if one sees a NATO-threat really as the main reason for that invasion, that is. Not all what Putin says into the microphones is the truth.

But we are all only guessing here...

mafketis
4 Mar 2024  #2452

CDL is part of the Russian Federation

Still no word on 3 and X?

Bobko
4 Mar 2024  #2453

If say in 2020 Ukraine had stored up enough western weapons in secret, that bridge could have been destroyed

You misunderstand me.

Then, as Bobko noted, it would have been gone for the 2022 invasion

I meant two much smaller bridges, in the north of Crimea. The Armyansk Bridge and Chongar Bridge.

These two bridges are the only way to get out of Crimea and into Ukraine, because Crimea is not so much a peninsula but more an island.

Mining the area adjacent to the bridges, and blowing the bridges themselves would have effectively prevented a Russian invasion into the South of Ukraine. We would likely be using landing ships and helicopters, instead - with likely disastrous results.

There is a criminal investigation in Ukraine, in regards to why this did not happen.

So far, only one poor guy, who is essentially a nobody, is getting all the blame piled on him. He says, the invasion started so rapidly that he failed to detonate the charges that were placed around the base of the bridge pillars. That is, he was rushing, and something about the electrical wiring did not allow the charges to go off.

This does not explain why there were no mines placed along the paths of Russian potential advances.

So, more conspirologically-minded Ukrainians believe that the Southern Command was bribed by the Russians, and that these are intentional acts of sabotage.

Bottom line - Ukraine could have kept Russian forces bottled up in Crimea, with no way out, if they had spent at most $200,000 on some explosives and 1940s era mines.

Attaching below, a map where I highlighted the locations of the two bridges, and one photo of one of the bridges. You can see these are tiny bridges, that could easily have been destroyed creating impassable bottlenecks.


  • IMG_0955.jpeg

  • IMG_0956.jpeg

Bobko
4 Mar 2024  #2454

Here's the poor bastard who's getting blamed for Ukraine losing the South. His name is Ivan Sestrivatov. He was 48 years old, when he was serving in the Ukrainian military on the Crimean border in 2022.

Source: pravda.com.ua/rus/articles/2023/07/6/7410027/index.amp

Translated relevant section of interview:

When maybe 10 minutes passed after the shelling began, I decided to blow up the bridges.

I tried to detonate it, but there was no explosion. I had to have direct vision of the site - so I saw there was no explosion. I stood at the bridges, on the first line.

I tried to reconnect, double-check the wires: maybe some mistake had occurred, something was connected incorrectly. Reconnected and tried again. I did this three times and no explosion occurred.

I'm not a sapper, but there are two options here. Either the sabotage group was blown up, or the detonation wires were damaged by mortar fire.

And then I was already acting on orders - it was necessary to retreat to other positions.

It was agreed that if anything happens, if I don't have time to evacuate, I'll leave in my own civilian car. And so it happened, I didn't have time to leave with everyone.

Therefore, I and two other conscripts were already leaving in a passenger car. As we were leaving, the shooting started. Then there was a grenade launcher shot in front of us, the car was flipped over and I was wounded
.


The guy ended up being taken prisoner that day. Later, he was returned to Ukraine as part of a prisoner exchange, and that's when he became a suspect in a criminal investigation. That's what we call an incredibly sh!tty day at work.


  • IMG_0959.jpeg

  • IMG_0958.jpeg

  • IMG_0957.jpeg

Bobko
4 Mar 2024  #2455

Final post in my bridges series :)

I just want to provide a little bit more context for the foreigners, of what this story means for Ukrainians.

As we all know, the Ukrainians successfully repelled a much more sophisticated attack happening along multiple axes from the North (Belarus). They also recaptured large swathes of territory that were lost in the East, specifically around Kharkov.

Their main problem, for more than 700 days now, has been the South and Southeast. At the same time - this was by far the easiest direction from which to prevent an attack.

So people are not unexpectedly angry at Zelensky/Zaluzhny/Reznikov for what seems like a totally self inflicted injury.

Indeed, why was a guy, who himself admits he's not a sapper, and his buddy - a 19 year old conscript, the ones responsible for stopping the invasion from Crimea?

Of course, in Russia we are grateful for their incomprehensible incompetence/corruption, but even we were left scratching our heads at why the Ukrainians did not deploy at least a symbolic defense along the perimeter of Crimea. Our forces reached Kherson and Mariupol, literally within hours. Not days, but hours.

Crnogorac3
4 Mar 2024  #2456

❗️"RUSSIANS ARE ADAPTING VERY WELL, AND UKRAINIANS AREN'T" - PRANKED AUSSIE MERCENARY

❗️"Russians are adapting very well, and Ukrainians aren't"

⚡️ An Australian mercenary Brad Kendall admits that Ukraine has suffered and will suffer heavy losses in a prank interview with Vovan and Lexus.

WATCH

bitchute.com/video/QJFS9SsoXJwA/

Bobko
4 Mar 2024  #2457

Russians are adapting very well

But we are autistic drunken slaves?!

Ukrainians, on the other hand, are unparalleled tactical geniuses and poets - every single one of them.

I do not believe this news.

Crnogorac3
4 Mar 2024  #2458

NATO'S BET ON KIEV LOST

southfront.press/nato-bet-on-kiev-lost/

Bobko
4 Mar 2024  #2459

@Crnogorac3

Why don't you tell us what people in Montenegro are saying on the streets, in cafes, and in their kitchens?

What do people think about this war?

Alien
4 Mar 2024  #2460

Why don't you tell us what people in Montenegro are saying on the streets

Because his head lives in russia.


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