Brexit 2019 and Poland

This is one of the goals of open borders immigration - to overburden the welfare system (in a way that many are hesitant to criticize) so that it can be dumped altogether.

In the neoliberal world order governments divest themselves of the need to educate, medically treat or police the citizenry - those that can afford to go private will do so and those who can't.... well tough luck. See the UK for where that is headed.

Interesting! Alot of the "open border" types in Germany vote Green. And they more often than not belong statistically to the better-off and well-educated class...who rarely have to stand in a long line to fight for an affordable flat or to suffer a life rent which is to high to die but to low to live humanely and who of course can afford private schools for their kids, to not let them suffer the open borders due a bad education because of to many foreign kids without any knowledge of german in their class.

But I think they would deny furiously to be called "neoliberal"! They like to see themselves as rather "social"...because they are so humane to these foreigners!

so? they're part of the current neoliberal system (like you and me whether we like it or not)

When they don't watch it the new left in Germany will come from the far right....just saying!

I think it was wise at the time, just as Brandt's Ostpolitik and subsequent Grundlagenvertrag was the right move as clearly the previous CDU policy wasn't going to work when West Germany had to take her place in the world.

Still, I will maintain that it was a terrible move for Germany to politically integrate in 1990. It was just too much, too fast, and the subsequent colonisation of the ex-DDR did nothing for those people. It would have made much more sense to let them find their own way out of the mess, especially as they may well have chosen to remain poorer, but with their communities intact.

When the ex-GDR becomes AfD land in time it's a kind of re-discovering their own way...only in the worst possible way!

Fact is, Bojo's made a royal mess if it all! No telling whether a re-vote will even change things much.

@Delph,
You're correct that the Grundvertrag of Brandt's became an inevitable corner stone, not only of Ostpolitik, but of the eventual fall of the Wall, nearly

twenty years hence.
@Tacitus,
I agree that Genscher was the genius tactician behind the Collapse. However, there's no denying Gorbatschow did provide the initial impetus.

Really???

I would put that to Reagan and his slowly USSR suffocating arms race...that enabled the change in Moscow....and without it the wall would still stand. No West-German politician ever had that kind of power!

Benjamin Disraeli the Earl of Beaconsfield & the first Jewish Prime Minister of Britain in one of his books "Coningsby" revealed the following:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coningsby_(novel)

Merkel is only a puppet on a wire.

It's not the people. It's the system that needs to be changed.

That's why I'm asking where would you put the treshhold.


You say it as an accusation. Aren't those prople also the ones who mainly pay into that system? They pay more in taxes, take out almost nothing and yet you put it as an accusation that they vote not the way you like

My accusation is that they rarely pay the consequences for their actions.

It's great to see yourself as a "global citizen", who jets to jobs between New York, Paris or London...who can afford everything when "open borders" means freedom and wealth for you.

But they are forgetting about all these millions (far more people btw.) for whom the same "open borders" are not an enrichment but a threat. And that ignorance, desinterest and yes class hate ("dumb rednecks") for those who are not as global minded and affluent (and now climate interested) can become costly politically!

That's the reason for the Brexit...and for the AfD...

And Trump... who won the elections despite all the odds being stacked against him. The people who voted for Brexit and Trump are the disenfranchised and the disillusioned who saw their standards of living plummet. Despite the controlled mainstream media telling them who to vote for. It was like a last cry for help, a plea of desperation.

....and Trump!

I did try to warn you Miloslaw that MPs don't trust Johnson. Your party plans were never realistic: maybe you can have a New Year Party but.......

They just pay for those benefits for others :)


As if it doesn't work both ways. It's funny how being successful, educated and young puts you at an disadvantage in certain circles especially now. How dare those scientist tell us it's not good to do this or that we know better. How come this young CEO can tell me what to do!

On one hand you are complaining that there are people who take from the system without putting in but on the other hand you disregard the wishes of people who mostly put in without taking.

And while I agree that it's polarising the society your outlook doesn't help with that but only deepens the gap

I think the extension will be to January, but Boris will be gone by then. His tactic was basically to not give anyone time to read his bill but in the day since it was released it has been revealed to be a total dogs dinner, far worse than May's so it will not stand scrutiny.

What would you have me to do?

@Lenka

The job of elected officials is first and foremost to care for the well-being of their own people that elected them in the first place, giving them the responsibility to act in the best possible interests of the nation. This is supposed to be their top priority, not receiving the "humanitarian" of the year award as in the case of Merkel.

What about getting back on topic for a start?


I've given it a good look. Shocking diatribe and stripping of rights across the board. The Labour people who voted for it need a good kicking - out of the Party.

I like what Nick Ferrari said on LBC this morning.
We pay our MP's £77,000 a year.
Is it really too much to ask of them to read and comprehend 110 pages in 3 days???
36 odd pages a day!!!!
What a pathetic bunch of old tossers!

Agreed. When questioned - quite a few Tory MPs admitted they hadn't actually read the deal. If I was their constituent, like with one of my students, I would have some searching questions for them to check what they had read, and then they would get my boot up their arse.

Mind you - my MP was Ken Clarke, and a chuffin' good lad he was too - had a couple of beers with him at student parties . He was a lousy Health minister, which was below his intellect:):) But he was a damn fine Chancellor.


An excellent listen in the morning. A lesson to me not to talk over my business classes, but to set them up and listen. A good journalist is Nicky Campbell. Ferrari is a fat old barrow boy.

Yet it was West German cash that sealed the deal, the infamous 1bn dollar loan to the Soviet Union!

I think West Gernany knew that the DDR would never survive as an independent state, so it was just a waiting game more than anything else.

Still, I spend quite a bit of time in Eastern Germany, and it's painful to see how many communities fell apart there.

Wrong thread Delph. Kindly cease polluting it. Thanks.


What;s the rush? Everybody sane knows that serious issues have to be properly debated - not just in 3 days

What rush?
32 pages a day, oh come on!!


Everybody sane knows what these morons are trying to do..... stop Brexit....and the electorate know it too, yeah all those thick plebs that should never have been given the right to vote....they will sort these moronic jobsworth MP's out in the election.

I really do not think you understand how angry the average Brit is right now.
It is getting out of control.
These stupid MP's need to learn what democracy means.

Are you discounting the Brexit Party in an election Milo? This could run very tight. A Labour/Lib Dem coalition against Con/Brexit Party.
Of course you will win in the end - if Labour could get Starmer in, they would have a gamblers' chance, but I am glad I don't live in the UK, where Momentum are the only choice for a "Labour" vote.

Terrible times.

Have you read it yourself? Read and understood the entire text? The answer is no. So why would you expect MPs to do it? It's a complex legal document and MPs are not experts. That's why there are an additional 125 pages of explanatory notes. Each MP needs at least a couple of weeks to mull it over, seek expert legal counsel on the bits that they're unclear on, and then the House needs to debate it for as long as it takes.


Yes, to the end of January.

you think MPs usually read legislation? that's hilarious!

Because we pay them £77,000 a year plus expenses.


Then they are in the wrong job..........

You pay them to represent you. That means they have a responsibility to scrutinize legislation thoroughly before voting because they are voting on your behalf and that legislation will directly affect you.


People are not elected on the basis of being experts. Though MPs may have their individual area of expertise, it is not possible for an MP to be an expert in every area of government. The experts are the senior civil servants in Whitehall who act as advisors to the government - as any Brit should know.


I think most of them scan it or at any rate the sections they consider the most important, some do a bit more than that. I think the amount of attention they give proposed legislation depends on how significant that legislation is. In the case of deciding the terms on which the UK will pull out of the EU, I think they will pay a bit more attention.

True and I expect them to work at it, not swan around for weeks.


Then MP's should avail themselves of their services if they can't understand the text.


LOL!!

The fact is this is not about scrutiny, this is all just delaying tactics in the hope that Brexit can be cancelled further down the line and the British public are well aware of that.

These MP's are a disgrace.