Brexit 2019 and Poland

I will put this Mirowski guy on my reading list - though of course your average Brexit voter would of want him to go back to Mirow.

What bits of neoliberalism do you especially object to ? For instance many Brexit voters objected to EU regulation and want BritIsh deregulation - so they are actually enhancing a neoliberal agenda.

You are wrong to intellectualize this - most Brexit voters are either poorly educated or xenophobic or both. It's an issue if education levels not of neoliberalism v Keynesianism.

As I have already said cms, Mafeketis needs to dumb it right down. The average Briton couldn't spot the blatant overall xenophobic and slanted tone of Johnson's deal, let alone empathise with economic theory.

Austerity and the degradation of communities, the prioritization of financial... trickery over work and production ... the need for a disposable class of worker bees (aka low skilled low pay migrants).


To be clear, I realize that most people aren't thinking in terms of political paradigms or larger societal shifts, but if you're familiar with Mirowski (or Bobbit or Bauman) then it's hard to not see it in those terms, the American blog akinokure also has a mass of interesting information on cultural and political cycles. He's kind of awful on some issues (especially gays and jews) but he's great on cultural and political cycles and evolution.

The era of neoliberalism (in hindsight) can be traced to the rise of Thatcher so it makes sense that the first serious pushback (Brexit) should also happen in the UK.

@mafketis
Yes - we had a revolution of sorts in the UK - with New Labour, until 9/11 hit us all with a jolt that not all was well in the playground. I suppose we all read and are au fait with what we want to hear, and for me a Hitchens or a Vidal was accessible.....but seeing as I agree with what you say, I'll give the political academics a go.

This old Labour is just ridiculous, "billionaires" have existed since the Romans aspired to organised city power, and so the UK are left with a witless prime minister. May our God go with us.

That was the opposition finally embracing the new paradigm (neoliberalism) in this case following Bill Clinton who did the same for the democrats in the US.

One a paradigm is established then both parties follow it (republic presidents like Eisinhower or Nixon actually governed like moderate social democrats and not rabid free marketeers...

What a patronising,snobby statement!
Anyone who thinks differently from you is either an idiot or a racist or both?
You are a French twat, and I know plenty of them.....

I used the word xenophobic, not racist. I used poorly educated, not idiot - something borne out by evidence of voters backgrounds.

Your response is to call me a French twat, one of many.

You could look up xenophobic in a dictionary.

I'm not French btw though I realize speaking French and spending some summers there makes me suspect to your typical Brexit voters.

Mafketis you are blaming all the problems of those areas on politicians when in fact much is caused by technological changes, exhaustion and closure of mines. In any case those people have voted both for the generous spending and for the subsequent austerity. whoever they want to blame they will be making themselves poorer by cutting off access to the biggest market for the remaining manufacturing that they have. That is pretty dumb.

This is a prime tenant of what neoliberalism has become - everyday people are supposed to become aware of macro-economic trends. That's not how human beings work.

Chris Arnade (a former wall street guy who spent several years traveling around the country talking to the remnants of what used to be a self-sufficient working class and which is now wracked by unemployment addiciton and hopelessness). He found that many Trump voters were following a particular strategy: The system was not working for them and would never work for them. So they vote for someone who will break up the system in the hopes that in the wreckage they can build something that works better for them. I'm assuming that's the baseline motivation for Brexit. When a socio-economic paradigm is set up to systematically work against the interests of a large chunk of the population - that's a big problem - and one that no one on top wants to address (it's also the logic behind the gilets jaunes).

But they were told that many times in the referendum- and still decided to vote that way, often ignoring the experts and listening to people with no expertise. Xenophobia was often a prime motivation - their stance on immigration being the most important thing to them.

You can call it whatever kind of paradigm you want - I call it willful ignorance

What had the experts done for them? If someone calling themselves an expert ends up enacting changes that have catastrophic consequences for you... maybe you wouldn't listen to them either.


Because that was the visual symbol of the changes, it was the government saying to them: Sorry, being a citizen counts for nothing! You now have to compete with people who will work for less wages than you and who will sleep six to a room. If you don't like it then tough!


That's very comfortable for you.

It's an interesting idea, and I wonder if the same wouldn't apply to many of the PiS voters in Eastern Poland too. When you combine it with the Polish sense of superiority/insecurity (Schrodinger's Poland?), you can understand why they would be drawn to such a message.

Not necessarily too much... Poland is barely dipping its toes in neoliberalism and is still in the stage where it works fairly well.

I would say there is a lot of cognitive dissonance among the hardcore PiS voters, especially east of the Wisła in that PiS is supposedly anti-communist but many of their strongest voters think of the PRL nostalgically and long for the pseudo-security of that time. Most of the time the party manages to square that circle but it's interesting when it can't (think of the Wielgus affair...)

Will try that Chris Arnade book - added it to my pile of audiobooks. Of course there is some existing lit like that - Hillbilly Elegy, Janesville, something about frackingt hat was quite good. What I get from all of those however is a sense that these people think the govt is both responsible for their problems and the person to fix it.

They're confused and dazed and reeling from the dislocations inflicted upon them. You shouldn't expect astute analysis. They're doing the best they can and the chances are you wouldn't be doing any better in their place...

Ignore all the insults mate.
You have your finger on the pulse.....

Johnson gave a speech in Northern Ireland today commending them for being able to keep freedom of movement. Also he doesn;t appear to know what a customs divide down the Irish Sea means to goods between N Ireland and the mainland. Do carry on clown Johnson, and hung parliament he we come.

Oh,but he does....if we don't put one in place.
Nobody else will dare to either....

That would be the smart move, declare a customs divide and simply ignore it. It would drive the control freaks crazy and force the EU to either create a hard border between the republic and NI or to unclench and give up their unholy compulsion to micro-manage everything in the universe.

Then all the countries in the world are control freaks. Somehow the normal state of affairs is that two separate political entities have control and checks in place. Yet here we should just let it be because UK can't put their ah*t together... Wonderful idea.

I don't think you are mistaken though that EU would be blamed for a border. Everyone can see what a mess UK makes out of it.

But if that was the case that UK would just decide to leave the border open some nice non-profit should give the refugees one way ticket to Ireland with instructions in their mother tongue how to get to UK and how to claim whatever they can claim. Some nice loud clear information to manufacturers that without checks the standards and actual of the products won't be checked would be good too.

Only if Ireland is daft enoufh to join Schengen...


How has the UK managed so long without a constitution?

Or if they decide that like UK, they shouldn't pay attention to the EU border


One- it's an issue of just one country, border is about workings that involves more than just their own arse.
Two- constitution is very young invention and countries survived long before. They did however check their borders
Three- as far as I know they view their constitution differently. For example when there was issue whether parliment should have a vote on Brexit it was called a matter of constitution

They wouldn't be able to go further than Northern Ireland. So what would be the point? The rest of the uk wouldn't be affected at all.

Wouldn't work - you'd have every Irish person getting their 23% returned to them at the Irish customs post and then exporting it to Northern Ireland without paying VAT. It would demolish Northern Irish businesses overnight, and lead to a lot of problems with the Unionists as they would suffer more.


There is one, it's just that there's no single document called that. It works because judges are genuinely independent and can put a stop to any judicial interference - what's been happening in Poland would never work in the UK, because it would be possible for an ordinary person to take the case to the Supreme Court, which would be able to order the government to stop.

Labour have promised to ditch the negative view of the Home Office and restore full rights to migrants, including NHS treatment, and social security payments. Poles and other immigrants should therefore be voting for them - but I wont be holding my breath.

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.

So Farage has sold out his party and entered into an election pact with the Tories. Spineless sell-out bastard.
Milosz will be partying tonight! And I will be celebrating that I didn't move back to the UK - my country, of which I am ashamed.

I don't blame you, it is quite embarrassing. Make up your minds already! lol

I am!!
Just have to reset the date for the party.......
Unlike you, I am not ashamed of my country now...... at last, I can see hope......

You mean - the hope that you can sell your fellow Poles down the river and deny them pension rights or NHS treatment?
Amazing.

Not sure that you understand how this works Doug.
Polish citizens living in Britain will continue to have access to all of those things.

But freedom of movement would end - which 70 percent of British people do not want. It traps them on their island. Plus it would deny my wife any rights in the UK even as my spouse.

But you have your opinion, and I'm also sticking to mine. That this Brexit is xenophobic, and will be overturned eventually.