Brexit 2019 and Poland

Then you must understand why some people, like me, hate the EU.

There is no "standard" about member states leaving the EU either....

There is only that:

"Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) states that "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements"."

So the member state has to deal with it's seceeding region on it's own after it's own laws...no other member state has to get involved at all, and nobody really wants to!

Didn't stop them in Greece....


Which is just what Spain did an independence referendum conducted by a regional government without the approval of the central government is unconstitutional in a constitution approved by an absolute majority of the Catalonian electorate within living memory.

Yet for doug what they did was savage and barbaric... what else could they do (and maintain the rule of law)?


think of me as a jesuit (minus the pedophile tendencies....) I question and work out my opinions constantly -n the idea of any of my opinions becoming settled and unchangeable is like intellectual death - a mind stays alive only through constant reinterpretation

Didn't stop them in Poland.


FO! After 'liberalization' of the church in the 60' they let in all those homosexuals' and that tilt statistic but still you have 50% change to be F by your teacher than by a priest. Anyway as a southern protestant do the dance will you? and send us a youtube video.

I'm not a christian. I'm incapable of religious faith.

I do respect religion (when its kept within reasonable boundaries). I think the greatest good that theologians can do is to encourage people not to take holy texts too literally (actually the modern catholic opinion IINM). Literalism is an ethical and moral dead end.


No middle eastern religion has a good track record of religious leaders who are adult men instructing children in private.... sexual abuse is also rife among Orthodox jews and in Madrassas (with a heavy dose of plain physical abuse to go along with it).

One of the good innovations of protestantism (at least in the US) was in fact to delegate the religious instruction of small children to lay women (who are far less likely to sexually abuse them) than men.

I'm pro region! :)

But for that they should really have a clear majority...in old national states where the population is so mixed up by now that is difficult. I think a federal system is best, for a national state with different regional identities as well as for a Union made up of different nation states, like the EU. The problems are the same, just on a bigger scale!

Regions together in a Union/national State are definitely stronger but the strong regional identity can be still supported in a federation without blasting it all.

It's the centralist states like Spain or France which have problems with strong regional identities...they can't afford anything which would weaken the central state aka Madrid or Paris.

I have no sympathy for centralist states, remind me to much about East Germany and the ex Eastern Bloc...they will need to change to federations if they want to keep it together, or they will lose it all. (And here you have the answer why countries like France will stop "the EU" from supporting such seceeding movements).

Well, unless you are a major political force in the EU you as BB - then good for you - I guess. Ah and so what ?


Actually Catalonia has it own laws and former leaders with a group of their followers were attempting a coupe going against results of the referendum and their own laws.


However both France and Germany has nothing against the EU to step on countries like Poland regardless of the laws agreements and such.. That is clear. Why cannot say it clearly on a internet forum?

Spain and France are very different.

Spain has always been intensely regional with a large majority identifying primarily with their region (or sub-region) rather than the country as a whole. this is part and parcel of Spanish identity.

In the post Franco era it has steadily been evolving into a more federal type structure granting large amounts of local autonomy

Autonomy has largely worked in other parts of the country (not without problems but mostly worked) but in Catalonia the leadership used local control of education and broadcasting to propagating a 24/7 message of independence, stealing resources* and blaming Madrid for any and all problems.

Catalonia has received so much autonomy there is no more that can be granted short of letting them have their own army. the EU and things like Schengen makes other signs of independence (border controls, own currency) non-starters.

But they don't know anything else beyond blaming Madrid and asking for more autonomy.
It's worth noting that the 2017 crisis came about after pro-independence parties suffered a loss of support in regional elections (framed as an informal referendum on independence). It's also important to remember that a majority of public polling has never revealed any kind of real majority for independence.

*for example en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol#Corruption_scandals

I'm not so sure it's all only about somebody propagating something....I've seen the demonstrations on the streets, there have been millions of people under way....it seems what Spain has to offer is not enough federalism and it can't be a working autonomy.

Or it might be another Brexit-case here....to many empty promises about some "freedom"! ;)

Essentially they bring in people from other areas (I know someone from the Balaerics who's participated*) and bully/intimidate anyone who questions the wisdom of independence publicly.

Again, reputable public polling has never shown a majority in favor of independence this is not a people's revolution situation but a minority (albeit a large one) who are trying to push an agenda.

*a very nice person otherwise, from talks with them I gather that a burning desire to escape the euro is part of their motivation


Like I said there's no more autonomy or federalism that can be offered in Catalonia short of independence... what's your solution?

In a way the EU de-emphasis on nation state identity is just going to foster and strengthen sub-national groups. too bad no one thought about that earlier.....

What about Bavaria? In 2017 about a third of Bavarians supported independence. Would you support Bavarian indpendence should that number creep past 50%?

Completely different and much clearer case. Greece asked for money, and like creditor the EU made conditions upon which the money would be given.

Same counts for Poland. The EU decided to wait until there was a ruling by the ECJ that the justice reform violated the European treaties before it took action.

In Spain the situation is much more complicated. On which basis should the EU interfere? "Excessive" police force? If the EU did that, it would have to intervene constantly. And for what? All dramatizations aside, the police actions' were legal under Spanish law and it is not like anybody got killed. Unless the police starts shooting the protesters with live ammo, there is nothing the EU will do about it.

There is no legal argument for Catalan independence within the European laws. Keep in mind that, all rhetoric aside, the separists majority is far from assured. They instead usually benefit from the fact that rural areas get disproportionally more seats than cities, which is where their strongholds are. The people in e.g. Barcelona are against it, because they know how much they benefit from the statis quo.


It is really at least partly about that. Keep in mind that the Catalans already have a lot of liberties in the Spanish system, including extremely broad cultural rights. That includes the right to have university classes entirely in Catalan. The one thing they complain about is their requirement to pay more money than the average, because they are a wealthy region. But so do other wealthy regions, and it really boils down to showing solidarity on which all countries rely on. Nevermind that Catalunya is partly so rich because it attracts investors who want to invest into Spain, and its' geographic locations which only became an advantage once their was frictionless trade between Spain and the other EU countries.

The same as for the Brexit....I don't have to like it and think it is a big stupidity, a shot in the own foot, but if so many people want it then I have to accept it...let them go! They have to live with it...


That's why the EU will end in a federation of strong, independent regions...the nation states will dissolve slowly into regions. The EU will look in the future alot more like the US with many regional states instead of a few nation states.

But that's a long process, that will take several generations....and it won't be easy....but secession movements will become regular I think.


Yes!

I think if there is a german Bundesland able to go it alone it would be Bayern, heh:) It has the strong regional identity, it has it's own government already, it's own regional party and foremost it has a strong economy.

But of course it wouldn't go "alone", Bayern would still want to stay in the EU...it would hardly be able to "make it" outside or risk it's economy with breaking all treaties...

It could become a good example how a nation state starts to dissolve into regions! It will always be the able regions which dream of independence...the poorer, weaker regions feel rather more safe together.

That is not true. Catalans don't "identify primarily" with their region. They are Catalans. and are not Spanish. What is the point of your offering an opinion which is palpably off the mark. I have spent many days with my daughters' bf/s family, and their friends - and they tell me they don't have an opinion one way or the other what Spain does in Madrid - for they are not Spanish.

Try to digest that.

To this I agree. We speak of entirely different nations.

I wonder which football team would win...The German Mannschaft against the Bayern!

My bet is on the Bayern.... ;)

That's like saying the Welsh don't "identify primarily" with their region. They are Welsh and are not British.

Every single region of Spain has an independence movement (even traditionally dirt poor Extremadura) most have marginal support. The modern Catalan independence movement is a like like ultra-nationalist groups like the Northern League or Vlaams Belang that you supposedly dislike.


There you have it, do you really want to be agreeing with Crow?

A lot of those people are not originally from Barcelona. I would question whether ethnic Barcelona people are against separatism.


Really?. I was under the impression that most in the Independence movement are left of centre, and liberal in their ideals.


It's not what I think, or want. It's what Catalans think that matters to me (wouldn't you take an interest or a position, to some extent, whilst not taking a slanted view, if your daughter was marrying into that culture?)

Then they are morons. Whether they feel Spanish or not, at least for now, Spanish government is ruling on the matters affecting them.


And if you spent a lot of days with a family supporting Brexit would it change the fact that the other half of the society voted against it?

I don't think a strong wish to become independent can be suppressed forever....Inside democratic nations it's an entirely irrational gut-feeling. It's what most Brexiter drives on...no amount of totally reasonable arguments against is helping...

Like a festering wound! Which, if not adressed properly, will explode someday into something ugly and stinking.

So...if a majority wants to leave let them. It's also undemocratic to force them to stay....who agrees with the Brexit has to agree with other secession movements. It's the same argumentation.

So non-Catalan Spanish citizens in Catalunya don't get a say in the matter?


Their rhetoric is left of center, their philosophy is an especially rigorous version of 19th century nation state-ism.


Good, no independent poll has ever shown a majority in favor of independence.

If it's like Doug says, an ethnic component to this then this is not so clear....remember the baltic states? During Soviet times alot of ethnic Russians had been re-settled there to keep the politics pro-russian /pro Moscow against the wishes of most native Balts which of course preferred their independence.

What now?

PS: Their solution had been to deny their Russians the automatic citizenship, in Latvia and Estonia they had to apply for it, like any other immigrants. They had no say in the independence of their state from Russia. Only in Lithuania it didn't matter.


Nah...those who argue for a strong Spain against the separatists are the nationalists here!


eurozine.com/regional-identity-vs-centralist-nationalism-the-spanish-state-against-catalonia/

An interesting read even if I think they believe to much in the EU...

PS: And it seems the autonomy of Catalonia is not in the same league as the Basques for example...there are different classes of autonomy...that's something Madrid could offer to improve.

I meant they do not consider themselves as in any way Spanish, so do not conform on cultural grounds when Madrid issues such proclamations.
For instance, do you know where Catalans "believe" that Christmas presents come from?
Answer, from a log, when it does a number 2.

to the extent that this is true it's a new innovation of the secessionists...

speakfreely.today/2018/02/11/catalans-view-catalonia/

Also...

speakfreely.today/2018/02/11/catalans-view-catalonia/

"Todavía no somos independientes porque no ha existido una mayoría de catalanes que así lo hubieran querido"

roughly "We are still not independent there has not existed a majority catalans who have so wished"

elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/15/inenglish/1573825228_254701.html

Well, there was - in the referendum. I would love to know how many outsiders were"bussed in", as in the Scottish referendum.

Ah, ok then.

Although there is place for cultural diversity within one country.

92% of 43% the majority against independence declined to participate in an unconstitutional process.

I have holidayed in both the French and Spanish sides of Catalonia and can say that there is a fierce cultural identity there, with language, cuisine, local culture and even the Catalan flag very prominent,

I do like the Catalans.
The same can be said of the Basques, and their language has no connection at all to Spanish,
Where will this all end?

Hehe. If you want to lose some weight - go to Barcelona. Disgusting food.

Well, there ya go.... I love the food in Barcelona, I love the people and the city too.
You obviously don't.
But you are very English......
Each to their own.

You are right Milo. I don't like Barcelona at all - awful place. Love the countryside and the mountains though!