Brexit 2019 and Poland

In 1975 at the age of 18 I was able to vote in a referendum asking us if we wished to remain in the EEC.
I and the majority of the UK voted to remain.
We were not offered a referendum on leaving the EC as it later became.
But we were given one on leaving the EU.
And we chose to leave.

Do you see what I mean?

The EEC was great.
The EC not so good.
The EU is not what we ever wanted.

Not a country. A special case. I am 100 percent behind Catalans because of the fascist Spanish police, and avoid the rest of Spain like the plague. I admit it's a disgrace, but at least some of the leaders managed to evade wrongful imprisionment. Short of invading there's not much we can do with that scum country.


Faced with an aggressive blitz of state media, all peoples get tired of bullying questioning and forced acceptance eventually, so it was perhaps in hindsight not such a great surprise that decent people caved in and said let's lie down, accept Brexit and just get on with it. But real democracies check that the people actually want that great change.

Another decent people also gave up all sensible reasoned argument in the 1930s.

This article explains why the British dislike the EU.

telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11066802/How-British-MEPs-are-outvoted-time-and-again-in-Brussels.html

That is however largely down to Cameron's decision to pull the Tories out of the EEP in 2009. You can not really complain that you get outvoted if you willingly decide to abandon your longtime allies in favour of a smaller coalition of partners.


Again, you are always free to try. I just doubt that you will succeed where so many have failed and provide a coherent argument as to why the ideas behind the EU are bad.

I agree! Please tell them that.... repeatedly!


If you paid attention to the news you'd have realized back in 2017 that the EU gave Spain a free hand to make sure Catalonian independence doesn't happen.

Does that make the EU a scum organization?

The EU has little power to intervene in the first place. Remember how Poland just ignores the ruling by ECJ regarding the resettlement of refugees?

Besides, the matter is far from clear and white as many suggest. Spain reacted overbearing and harsh, but the motives of many separatists are questionable too. Their arguments are e.g. in many ways as dishonest as the Brexit campaign and their public support is not as big as they would like.

The police are still beating up innocent bystanders today. My daughter, trained as a journalist, witnessed this day to day. That criminality has nothing to do with the EU, but with the illegality and brutality within the authorities in Spain.

Stay away folks!


..is behind a paywall. And it's "Some British", not "The British...".

So.... the EU is threatening Spain for its brutality? Is it threatening sanctions or sending delegations to talk sense to the crazy Spanish government?

I can't find any condemnation by the EU over Spanish behavior... which...... is...... oddd

I expect NATO to bomb Spain.

@Milo,
According to a recent SPIEGEL interview with Merkel advisor Peter Altmaier, Germany continues to recognize Great Britain as "European".

Uhh?
Because we are.......
Leaving the EU does not make us any less European.

No, Britain is American. Official Germany is in agony and speak nonsense.

Then you would be saying they are interfering in affairs of State...seems they can't win.

Why not meddling in Spain? Aren`t lives cheap there? Why not push them in sh**? Let them suffer. Suffering is good for their souls. Let them stumble and let western Europe take bloody money. For, money is everything.

No. they're right to be concerned about certain developments in Poland, but where are they for Catalonia? they're on the Spanish side, that's where.

You're being pedantic. I don't offer the truth to my daughter or her Catalan bf, and like to indulge their idea of a better future, but Spain is a sovereign nation and on the surface the EU has to side with such. Obvious?

Would your organisation go against its' interests?
Didn't think so.

Exactly. Non on western Europe, Vatican included, takes Poland seriously. Lives of Poles are cheap to them and Poles are expendable, usable to makes profit on them. So expect them to even stimulate chaos in Poland.


EU (ie western Europe) deciding who is sovereign. Universal (UN) standard is violated, so EU deciding. They will decide against Poland. We all know that.

Now say that Vatican, France or Germany love Poland. They simple don`t. Let`s face it. They hate Poland.

The EU does not want any single member to become more than a single member (for some good reasons and some less good reasons).

How long can you consume non-state Polish media without seeing stories of EU condemning PiS's attack on its own constitution?

How long can you consume Spanish or Catalan media without seeing stories condemning Spanish government actions? Some quick googling in spanish found a couple of pro forma statements of concern....

So you are saying that the EU is scapegoating Poland but letting Spain off scot-free? That doesn't ring true because as we agreed, one event is a country breaking EU rules on a free judiciary, and the other is some sickoes in uniform beating up groups of innocent bystanders, just like in the PRL. One country has moved on and become a useful member of the European family. The other is living in some medieval time warp and need to sort themselves out sharpish otherwise there will be bad times ahead - as well as no Dougpol holiday money being spent there.

The situation in Barcelona has nothing to do with the European Union really, sorry. It would have been good if they could have censored Madrid in some way, but one shouldn't think they are the European wide police and could metaphorically send drones at any time. But only Trump does such illegal and dangerous things.

No. I'm saying the EU rightly criticizes and puts pressure on Poland, and simultaneously has given Spanish governments the green light (or quietly pressured them) to do whatever it takes to make sure that Catalunya does not secede from Spain (and in Spain that's going to get a little dark).

But at this point it's clear that Catalunya independence is tantamount to Catexit (and no speedy readmission), you're so against Brexit are you for Catalonexit?

(for years the independence leaders were assuring their poor gullible followers that they could stay in the EU or be readmitted within months... more lies from one of the most intellectually dishonest groups in Europe)

...again! It is not THE EU who does this or that.

Maf, think about the members of the EU....there are alot of countries which have to fear similiar secession movements. Can you really believe they would support Catalonia without thinking they will come to regret that later???

And then there are members which just don't care, partly because of ignorance of because that topic is of no interest to them...meaning there just is no common position...hence there is no EU solution or an agreement about how to act...Nobody supports Spain nor does someone criticize Spain...there just is no common opinion on that!

PS: It might come to that that the Scots will be the next trying to secess, from Great Britain this time..you won't hear nothing about it from the EU either...neither positive nor negative...it is for some members just a dangerous minefield...nobody wants to give their own regional upstarts any ideas.

Whenever you want to write "THE EU", try to be more precise and put those countries you actually mean in that sentence instead, it would make more sense....

so which particular countries have problems with the current PiS government in Poland... I'm surprised it isn't a non-partisan issue but I'll take your word for it.

It's not so much against PiS as a question of law....a law which is formulated in an EU treaty which Poland is seen to act against (which will be reviewed) ....there is no such law about regions wanting to secede from member countries.

Germany of course and here we again after a full circle or BS.

It was my understanding that there was - leaving an EU member state is tantamount to leaving the EU (that's the standard reading of the relevant.... documents).

For the record I agree that the PiS is messing around with the rule of law in a disgraceful manner and I agree that an independence referendum without the approval of the central government in Madrid is unconstitutional in Spain (as approved by an absolute majority of the electorate in Catalonia).

I think the reports of violence around the illegal referendum in 2017 were a bit overblown (some of the images were from other events, some in other parts of Spain) but why doesn't anyone want to believe that successive governments in Spain have gained tacit approval to prevent Catalonian indpendence from happening when presented as a human rights issue? (when actually it's a constitutional issue).

Oh, so you were there, were you? Are you calling my daughter, who was, a liar? And her Catalan family are liars too?
You don't think


Yes, a great deal of you Balkan people are mentally ill. I feel sorry for the normal millions, having to suffer dangerous nutjobs like you. Now go. Come anyway near Tri City and I will command my dog to rip your face off

I'm not calling anyone anything.... except the Catalan independence leaders who are a reprehensible bunch of lying thieves.

If it was so awful then why didn't the EU condemn what the horrible Spanish government did?

Answer: they were okay with it

You go round in circles, don't you? Because it would have been taken as interference in the business of a sovereign nation. Look, most people don't share your view that the EU interferes or actually determines the laws and norms of a member state. Those traditional and cultural aspects are more or less intact.

The Spaniards have a history of setting the police onto their own people, and particularly those who are actually from a different culture, who are NOT Spanish. Catalans for one. Some Catalans are fine with being integrated into Spain. Others have nothing to do, and want nothing to do with Spain, simply because they are not Spanish. If you don't agree with that statement, then ask them.

The EU can't rule on such a complex situation, but you will take a stick to beat the EU with. Why not attack the Spanish government In Madrid? Or dismiss the Catalans' wishes for recognition? After all, all they wanted was a referendum on independence. Not armed struggle, or bombs. Simple really.

Not sure about that Doug......

Well, I sort of meant that the EU would intervene if people started dying, and I do agree with Maf that their silence was deafening when Spanish police used the force that they did.

And that was a mistake in my opinion, but I can also understand why they kept quiet, or in fact supported the Spanish action. That's establishment, and "law and order". It sucks and is in no way freedom.