Brexit 2019 and Poland

Silly old boys (like Michael Caine and me) shouldn't have had the vote. He's going to be dead soon, and his opinion has no bearing on the UK's future. Such a referendum should have had a poll cut-off of 16-60 years of age. Then and only then would I have respected the result. It is natural that as some people age they become more insular and conservative in their approach.

Aka selfish self-important obsessives.

While I agree that the future belongs to the young what you suggest is disgusting. Not to mention that you can counter it with 'young don't have enough life experience to know what is good'

Oh! You think so? There are plenty of political commentators who came to the same conclusion - for the reasons I mentioned. You prefaced your POV by stating the obvious, that the "future belongs to the young."

You wouldn't have stated that as your topic sentence if you didn't believe in the truth of it to some degree - a bit of a Freudian slip there I'm afraid. Leaving the EU does not affect the likes of Michael Caine and his generation one iota.

Yes it does - you could be 60 and to live another 30 years these days. Of course everybody's entitled to vote. That should've included British nationals who are living abroad - which was a promise in the 2015 election but never carried out.

FINALLY !

LONDON, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Lawmakers approved legislation on Thursday which will allow Britain to leave the European Union on Jan. 31 with an exit deal, ending more than three years of tumult over the terms of the unprecedented divorce.

Again, the BREXIT will hurt Britons way more than it will affect Europe:-)

Pure speculation and just your opinion.
You have absolutely no evidence to back that comment up.
And do you know what?
Most Brits don't care, even if you are right.
We wanted our freedom.
This was not about money.

Yyy, I seem to remember certain bus...:)

Yeah, so do I.
All politicians lie.
But usually the general public sees through the lies and nobody really believed that slogan, just as nobody believed the Labour Party''s manifesto.
They voted for what they thought, not what people were telling them to think.
Politicians underestimate the intelligence of the electorate at their own peril.
As recent events right across europe have proved.

But that about "freedom" they believe? :)

What exactly consists this freedom of for the common people on the ground once the Brexit is done?

Freedom is a really huge word....how were to common people imprisoned inside the EU?

If it's really more or less about the "feeling" to not sit alone on top of Europe after winning the war, and a dislike of sharing the power with the likes of Germany or France....I rather guess the won "freedom" after Brexit will be all in the minds only...

The most important one is the ability to elect the people that govern you, make your laws and run the country.
And the ability to remove them from power if we don't like what they are doing.
This is something we do not have within the EU.

This is key. More and more within the EU elections have no real meaning because those elected are hemmed in by EU directives and other agreements (from inside or outside the EU) that may or may not be in the local population's best interest.

No government elected in Greece can actually do anything but follow directives from outsiders. That's going to lead to massive alienation from the political process itself.

The same goes for Italy where an unpopular technocratic government is doing what it can to prevent the nation's most trusted politician from doing what a majority of the population wants...

France has now entered that country's longest strikes ever due to policies of the fanatical pro-EU leader (a French colleague lists the real issues people are upset about are not reported in the international media).

That is not a sustainable model.

That is all new to me! :)

I'm not sure we are talking about the same...so, all the british govs of the last decades had been forced into power by Brussels??? Thatcher too? Blair? Cameron???

(You know, the one with the referendum)


He wants to reform the mad pension-laws.....Frenchies fear to lose some expensive privileges...Germany did something similiar under Chancellor Schröder...it worked!

What is new to you?

National governments within the EU have very little real power.
Most of the decisions are made in Brussels by people that we did not directly elect and cannot deselect.

When you are in debt you have to pay back your credit...if you don't you won't get any credit anymore.

Every greek gov just looked at the numbers and thought it would be better to pay the debt back than to go rogue...nobody forced them to do that than their own rationality.There was no EU army waiting on the outside of Athens to invade the moment any greek government would had said "Oxi"....but there wouldn't had been no more money either...

A fault of the EU or the way money works everywhere? Not at least because it's not an EU thing but an EUROZONE thing...


Milo, what are you talking about?

The national govs send their politicians to Brussels...and the opposition parties too....the EU works through the national governments. Who do you think sits in all the commissions and panels? And what do you think they are doing all day?

No they don't.

We send MEP's.

Out of 69 British MEP's only 8 are Conservative Party( The ruling party).

And how much say do 69 British MEP's really have in the EU?

Even if not much longer useful info but still:

....In the European Parliament MEPs are not organised by nationality, but by political affiliation. They sit in political groups. Each group must have a minimum of 25 MEPs and have representatives from at least one-quarter (7) of the member states.

europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/european-elections/uk_meps.html

British MP's have (had) the same vote and voice as any other MPs....and since they are working in multi-national Euro-Parties they make policy for likeminded people across Europe.

Here are some of these political groups:

europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/organisation-and-rules/organisation/political-groups

I guess british Labour MP's preferred to work with a different group than british Tory MP's....it's the same in every EU member state. A conservative EU group gains it's members from rather conservative european MPs...whereas the leftists and the Greens get their members from rather leftist and green political parties across Europe, for example.

So...the bigger the affiliation bloc...say, conservative or social democrat or whatever, the more influential it's ideas and wishes are...the bigger the chances it get's it's will through.

Sometimes these groups work together and support each other, sometimes they fight each other...some are allies, some are enemies...as in every democratic parliament.

Nobody cares about the nationalities of the members of these groups...it's the political affiliation that counts!

So, you should rather ask which political affiliation those 69 british MPs had joined, and how powerful their bloc was...

Even more soon-to-be-useles info for Brits:

2019 there had been european wide elections for the EU parliament...here you can see which blocs and affiliations are powerful and which are not so much...which group won and which group lost...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_election

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems they were elected? Or does that count only when the elected politician is what/who you want it to be

Usually you are very reasonable but with EU you seem to have a problem and switch when it suits you . Countries should be able to self govern even if they go mad but then when it comes to Greece suddenly EU should have stopped them and force them out of euro. National elections should matter but if they choose someone I don't like then I can still moan and blame it on EU.


But that's what British people voted on. You can blame only your countryman . When the 'wrong' party will be elected in national elections will you blame EU as well?

I think the EU is a to nice boogeyman than to let it be, even after the Brexit.

I'm sure Brussels will be blamed for everything going wrong with the aftermath too... :)

True and that is the point, most Brits don't vote in Euro elections.
I don't even know who my MEP is.

There is talk about making the elections inter-european...meaning that any EU-member-voter can vote other peoples MP's in the european elections...
Meaning Germans could vote for french or polish candidates...Greeks could vote for German ones etc.

That would be a huge step....and make for a fascinating election battles across the continent.

Right now most people barely know their own politicians...even less those aspiring for a seat in Brussels (*nods to Milo*). But some politicians are better known...even if from another country.

The whole election process would be needed to be accompanied by inter-european media...with international discussions and selections...that could really be a big game changer!

(But the logistics would be hell!)

Sorry but this is hilarious! On one hand you are saying how Brits love freedom and want to be able to vote on their representatives and then you say most don't bother to take part in EU elections... You see the contradiction in this?

The fanatically pro-EU financier was elected but seems to no longer has the confidence of the public.

Italy is a tougher case, never very stable and (like Greece) should never have been in the Euro. But the foolhardy hubris behind founding that accursed non-currency can't admit failure so rather than admit they've made massive errors continue to kick the can down the road....


Why should Greek citizens pay for the massive errors in judgement of private German banks?

The Euro has turned into a national loanshark. No credible person insists that debts made to loansharks must absolutely be paid back....


It's a lot deeper than that (again this is not reported well). All of his reforms are to be born by the working class with massive exemptions for elite financial interests...

Remember the flight attendant strikes at Ryan Air a few years ago? I had to search a _lot_ to find out about the real reasons for that. It wasn't about higher wages as such but about a systematic system of employee exploitation.

Does it have to be "fanatically" ?

The EU isn't a religion...


Of course...it's only always the socialists who spend other peoples money till nothing is left! :)

*have to go*

Isn't it..... It seems to be based on a bunch of ideas of uncertain origin that CANNOT be questioned.... (further and further integration is always necessary, correct policy always works, etc).

The ideas behind the EU are in fact well researched. Particulary the Schuman plan, and the political beliefs of the founding fathers e.g. Konrad Adenauer.


Who prevents you from questioning them here?

The idea behind the EU is just so simple, yet logical (deeper integration to prevent war and assuring that Europe stays competetive in a globalized world), that no one can question their conclusion without either lying or deliberately misleading. Case in point the Brexit campaign.

Yes and no.

The British just feel that MEP's are ineffective.

Ever hear of 'point of diminishing returns'?


I guess that settles it!

One can expect an American not to understand the European fear of wars. The EU is a definite force for good in that area, and I'm all for a European army. The EU can solve nationalistic aspirations and other problems by diplomacy, whilst NATO left to its' own devices without a parliament to define it, would blunder into ill advised scenarios.

Again.... have you ever heard of the concept 'diminishing returns'?


It has been and can be again, but at this precise moment? No. No, it's not.


Like Catalunya? How's that one going?