Coronavirus in Poland

This is a good thing, jon, as the quicker natural immunity will be achieved and we can get on with our lives without such silly controls.

The fines? Yes, if it encourages common sense and increases the vaccine take-up rate.

The fines are low ones though, however the hassle and stigma of being stopped by the cops is part of it.

It's the official government number but seems to date from June or July when rates were plummeting but people weren't being removed from the rolls... and since it's a PiS government they can't admit they goofed, so.....

It doesn't seem very accurate. A better figure would be the number of actual diagnosed cases plus a cautious extrapolation of undiagnosed ones.

I notice that the main road near me is jammed with traffic today, and the smaller road that I live by had become a rat run to the local cemetery. Normally the police close the road junction around Halloween to stop the cemetery visitors from using it however this is the first time I've seen it get busy so early. Perhaps people are visiting now to avoid crowds of The Infected closer to the day.

Following China's lead, most governments treated covid as a moral panic (or instituted politics that instigated a moral panic or encouraged a moral panic response). I've read that those don't really last longer than 18 months and that period has now passed.

Just reading this thread, it's so easy to see who are citizens and who are "subjects".

That response appears on its own whenever there's a crisis; the whole anti-vax thing is an expression of that.

An interesting website here, listing vocal anti-vaxxers and covid deniers (mostly American since that's where the website is from) who've been hospitalised with or died from Covid.

sorryantivaxxer.com

Of course they would have been better off taking the vaccine. But apart from giving you a ghoulish sense of schadenfreud what purpose does this list serve ? Its about as useful as the Daily Mail posting a list of prominent AIDS victims in the 1980s and saying they all deserved it because of their risky behavior.

You really should distinguish between

a) crazy people who think all vaccines are the devil's work

b) people who have no problem with most vaccines but are hesitant to take these particular medicines which have been rushed and use pretty new technology (and which do not confer traditional vaccine protection) for an ailment with over 97% (to be conservative) survival rate (the younger and healthier the person the higher the rate).

Lots of rational people who have taken vaccines in the past (and make sure their children receive the standard vaccinations) are... hesitant about this. Calling them "anti-vaxxers" won't make them any less so.

The two things are so closely connected; the sheer perniciousness of the anti-vax pushers' propaganda, and those risking their health and that of those around them by thinking they know better than public health bodies.

That and those bizarre individuals who believe that infectious diseases and their prevention/treatment are somehow 'private' matters.

At least the deaths of anti-vaxxers and Covid deniers increases the quality of the human gene pool.

Today, with third-party payer health care, nothing is private anymore - including abortions - since everything we do has an impact on others, including how much bacon you have for breakfast, if you exercise regularly, or wear seatbelts.

What many of us object to is the direction and the rate of how the red line moves - the Australian gulag being the best example of 1984, here and now.

There is nothing bizarre about it at all - it's in the Polish constitution, the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human rights.

Were they all suspended in March 2020 ?

What is the 'it' that you refer to?

Personal inviolability, the right to privacy and the fact that you can not be discriminated against

...based on immutable characteristics only. If you stink or don't have a vaccine passport, you and you alone will be discriminated against and not be admitted.

Lets say this - the idea that your medical records are your own business was mainstream until March 2020. I am still not able ask my employees about any aspect of their their health, they could come in with weeping ebola sores and i cant ask them what all the pus is about. A lady could come for an interview 8 months pregnant and I can not ask her about it.

To now be gaslighted into thinking that medicine has always been a matter of public record is a bit much.

That does not however cover infectious diseases, which in many cases have for decades been statutorily notifiable and subject where appropriate to mandatory treatment. Turn up at a doctor's surgery in Poland with symptoms of Plague, Viral Haemorrhagic Fever, Cholera, Tuberculosis or Syphilis and you will find this out very quickly.

Nor does any 'right to privacy' trump public health concerns.


You can, though insisting on vaccines (quite common when entering some countries) is not in any sense 'discrimination'.

If you need a yellow fever vaccine to get into Uganda fair enough. But I never needed one to go to my office or Biedronka. And those documents say "for any reason" - there are no subclauses about infectious disease or vaccine and hopefully lawyers will get stuck into them sometime soon.

You don't now.

Whether those companies mandate requirement for entering their premises is another matter, despite any future sabre-rattling by lawyers who care little about public health..

No we don't - but for sure it's being talked about and has become law in some of our neighbors. Lithuania, Romania and I see Austria is proposing locking down unvaccinated people. Incredible really the arrogance of their government.

As I said I got my vaccine the day it became available but nobody has ever voted for this level of coercion - and setting lawyers aside maybe this does need to be tested by elections. If Biden had been upfront about these measures then Trump would have won those 4 or 5 close states and we would still have that moron to deal with.

That is why some states are taking unlimited emergency powers away from their governors here.
BTW, those are the red states, not the Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks love power - even if it's not in their hands. For now.

Of course nobody ever voted for a pandemic.

Nobody likes it, however being vaccinated is normal enough and however annoying personal restrictions are, they're less annoying than going on a ventilator or passing on a disease that could kill someone. We'd not need these measures if more people got the shot and wore masks. Yesterday I was at a big gathering in a hotel, maybe 50 people packed into a smallish function room. Only three people were wearing masks. One was a dentist (who would lose their livelihood for a while if they got covid) one was a person with an incurable auto-immune disease (who would be affected by covid more than most people) and the other was me (a neighbour of the dentist and the partner of the person with the auto-immune disease, and who needs a negative test before travelling next week for work).

Oddly enough, one of the people without a mask was a doctor who at a meeting a couple of days previously pointedly offered me a mask since I'd forgotten to put one on when everyone else had one.


Fot r this we must be thankful.

It's the Chinese communist model - government's are no longer servants of the citizenry, they command the citizenry. Those in favor of the crap going on in Lithuania support the Chinese Communist model of government which is not concerned with rights or constrained by legislation - it's all about obedience to authority.

Sweden is one of the very few countries to outright reject this model and follow established pandemic science rather than goofy Xi voodoo.

If you are vaccinated, that dust shield gives you exactly zero increase in immunity.
If the people next to are vaccinated, your dust shield gives them exactly zero increase in their immunity.
I know because I asked my doctor. A licensed doctor vs jon357 - the doc wins.


Yeap. And a test of how far the authority can go and get away with it - with the subjects cheering as they are in Australia.

Now China knows how to defeat the US; cause another lockdown and stop shipping.

You're reading too much into it all.

This is a useful graphic, from just across the border in Germany.

• 
  Screenshot2021102.jpg
  

BS. When was the last time somebody was spitting in your face? We here shop, watch movies, walk in parks, and do 100 other things without spitting in anyone's face. When we sneeze or cough, we cover the holes.

Also, "transmission" is not equal to the visit to the nearest ER.


Actually, he is too nice to the covid Gestapo, their "scientists", and beneficiaries.

Interesting that some of the most conformist societies are the most relaxed about their rules, and those where people are less conformist need to take stronger measures to get things done.

Nevertheless, I don't see anything especially onerous about wearing a mask in public places during a pandemic.

There are many things we can wear that are not onerous. Like bands to show our sexual orientation, marital status, income, nationality, religion, and criminal record - all to assist the police in doing their job. And, of course, the vaccination status.

Not onerous - the stupidest argument yet for masking.

From:

thehill.com/policy/international/europe/578137-austrian-chancellor-considering-implementing-lockdown-for

Austrian chancellor considering implementing lockdown for unvaccinated
Unvaccinated residents would only be allowed to leave their homes for specific reasons if the number of patients in intensive care reaches 600, or one-third of total capacity, the AP added.

There were moments when I felt bad about my references to Gestapo. No more.

CNN Investigation: Tens of millions of filthy, used medical gloves imported into the US
But the masks we wear were never sneezed into. I swear.

They had those mask stickers in my bank in Poland for a while - there is not a jot of science to back up those percentages.

There has only recently been a proper randomized trial of masks, despite almost 100 billion being sold. The results ? An 11 per event reduction for proper surgical masks and a negligible reduction for Biedronka type masks of maybe 5 percent. It's still not peer reviewed

Given the circumstances, does it need to be?