Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees

Quite. And not exactly typical since the residents of the region suddenly found that an artificial state had landed on them.


Try to understand the post. Democracy has mechanisms. Some telephone survey is not one of them.


Exactly A criminal record or otherwise makes no difference and EU citizens have th right to live wherever they want in the EU without following those silly and unenforceable 'karta pobytu' rules.


I have insurance through work but certainly would not discuss this with any sort of Polish official - it is not their business.

This discussion however detracts from the refugees who are coming and will hopefully take out citizenship and become Poles. Interesting in this thread is that some of those who shout loudest and most aggressively about not wanting to help their fellow men in distress are those who also shout loudest in other threads about so-called 'catholic values' - rank hypocrisy here.

So when applying for PR, you are not asked to prove financial status, employment, health coverage (either state or private) and declaration of no criminal record (serious crime) and of course, the police do not visit you at your home address. There must be a lot of liars on PF.

As I stated in an earlier post, these people will have to be given funds and accommodation which would not be available to Polish people who have paid tax and contributions. They are being rewarded for entering Europe illegally and as such, it will encourage others to follow.

Yes, because any country would be happy to have a poor immigrant with criminal record depending on hand outs over that of a hard working decent self-supporting individual. That actually make sense in the asylum you are living in mate.

Avalon, people from the country that Dougpol1 and I originally came from already have permanent residence in Poland and anywhere else in the EU. This is one of the EU's 4 freedoms - the same basis upon which around a million Poles have settled in the UK and elsewhere.

In this thread, we are talking about the EU funded humanitarian assistance to Poland's quota of refugees, many of them women and children who had to flee a war zone.

Did you just call pre-war Polish state - "an artificial state"?
Wow.


I do understand your post. You have said politicians shouldn't bow to the opinion of the majority because it would be a mobocracy. In fact you called majority a mob. I don't know on which Marxist university you have been indoctrinated but what you disregarded with disdain as mobocracy is in fact democracy. You are wrong.

However you have been right in diagnosing what is wrong with today democracy and why people feel politicians do not represent them. There is obviously a mechanism working behind the curtain that perverts democracy by somehow curtailing the will of the majority.


You sure do whatever you can to detract that discussion from the topic which is - What right does the EU have to pressure Poland into accepting refugees from another EU country? None whosoever!


They well might take out citizenship but they will not became Poles by any stretch of a ideologically biased imagination.


Oh dear, you have addressed two separate issues here, let me answer them in no particular order. In fact, you are one of those who shout loudest and most aggressively in this thread trying to ridicule and shun all other opinions but your own.

Also do not try to make it all about helping people in distress. It isn't! The world is full to the brim with people in distress, maybe you should put in order your priorities first before engaging in emotional blackmail to manipulate people. What makes those healthy young males your priority? Is that the fact that they have attempted to enter onto the EU territory illegally?

Not one sentence of that makes any sense. Basically a nationalistic polemic - about as far from joined up thinking as it gets. To take just one example:


Very simple. As part of the EU and the Schengen zone, Poland, through free will and a referendum, contracted to receive certain benefits and hold to certain obligations. This mainly involves free movement of people having an absolute right to settle anywhere in the Union, just as people from anywhere in the union have an absolute right to settle in Poland. Additionally, major issues like this refugee crisis are managed on a shared basis, with every state including Poland playing its part. And this is what has happened, and it is good.

Yes, its worked really well so far. The UK is trying to curb benefits and send unemployed Europeans home after 6 months. Hungary is building a fence to keep them out, Austria is trying to send them back to Hungary. Italy and Greece are inundated and cannot cope so have threatened that they will give documents to allow these people to travel freely throughout the EU.

France turns a blind eye to the illegals ( mostly all young, fit, men) breaking into vehicles that are boarding ferries to the UK, Germany and Denmark are now carrying out road, stoppage checks to try and deter cross border immigration. Its all working well, and you want to welcome as many as possible. I think it is you that is delusional. I have two young daughters and I worry about their future.

Very well actually.


Cameron is, but don't tar everyone with the same dirty brush. The other example are even poorer ones and again, you're confusing different issues. Nationalists do that without shame.


Bingo - ideas predicated on fear rather than common sense.

The Polish government however hasn't dodged their obligations, has agreed to accept these 1200 distressed people and has done the right thing...

No Jon - you have to explain slowly. Avalon doesn't get it.
But I think I do. He's British, but over here, if I read it right? He speaks for Poland.
He's rather like those customs officials in the UK who are not from Britain originally - but who will over-zealously repel all boarders, as they get a false sense of entitlement....

The likes of Avalon don't realise that immigration, within reason, builds GDP, and has certainly built Britains'. Avalon and his kind applaud black African footballers, enjoy Pakistani restaurants, watch Bollywood films, but wash their hands as soon as, when there is no avoidance of shaking the persons' hand.

Amazing, and Cameron and his type propagate this ridiculous notion of unter-menschen.


Vox - I kindly suggest that you do some homework before believing all the nonsense coming out of Downing Street and the rest as to the totality of "healthy young males" on these vessels. Are you suggesting that there are in fact no women and children on these vessels, and that rescuers who have pulled drowned children's corpses out of the Adriatic are delusional in their testimony?

Sorry, Pakistani restaurants and Bollywood movies.....lol......that made laugh.

Ah! but I do get it. To accept these people into the UK, Germany, France, Sweden etc, where there are others to help them integrate makes sense, even then, how many is enough?, 1200?, 12000?, a million? according to the latest reports, 148,000 have managed to reach Europe so far this year, there are reportedly, another 500,000 in North Africa that are waiting to cross the Med.

Jon has said that the EU will fund the people accepted into Poland. For how long will they fund them? who is going to pay for the schools, teachers, translators, hospital places, special food requirements, housing etc.

Where are these people going to work? where are the jobs

Good point. My friend who works for a leading Polish job site says there are at the moment over 30,000 job advertised on their site. I happened to open another leading Polish job site (pracuj) and found this at their start page: "Mamy dla Ciebie 34 954 oferty pracy" - which means we have 34954 job offers for you.

I am not saying that every new arrival is qualified for every newly created job, but there are a lot of people who are registered as "unemployed" in Poland who actually work under the table. Impossible to get reliable statistics, but you gotta know at least a few if you live in Poland?

Here is a screenshot.

• 
  pracuj.jpg
  

In one town? in one city? or are you going to spread them all over Poland? Good luck with that.

Go to the website and check the distribution of job creation. I assume most are in or around big cities. My point is not the distribution, my point is, there are some jobs out there, and official Polish unemployment data is hopelessly inaccurate.

I was at a construction site last week right here in Warsaw, checking a pump installation, and guess what? Other than the engineer and supervisor, not one guy working there was Polish. They were all Ukrainian. Is that a sign of lack of jobs or a sign of lack of will to accept existing job offers? You tell me.

You honestly think, that these people are going to want to be split up, that they will not want to congregate together? Lets suppose the Polish government finds a place where they can stay together, what happens when they exercise their right to a family life and want their relatives and dependants to join them? will the EU pay for that as well? Once you let the Genii out of the bottle, there is no putting him back.


telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10693022/Immigrants-cost-Britain-3000-a-year-each-says-report.html

You should become an EU politician. There are lies, lies and statistics.

Jon I'm not surprised that logic and a sensible approach to a problem makes no sense to you after all you are ideological bigot and you see everything in the light of your dogma. You cannot even explain why my post doesn't make sense to you without retorting to ideological language - "Basically a nationalistic polemic - about as far from joined up thinking as it gets" - what is joined up thinking? Is that even in English? Do you mean to say that I don't think like a collective entity? Thank you, I take it as a compliment.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue debated here and you just waffle on to create impression that you are savvy and actually know what you are talking about.


Which is just a fancy way of saying that EU countries need to agree to cooperate in addressing those issues that are not regulated by the EU treaty in a process of diplomatic negations and consultations.

What means that you have been brazenly waffling when you wrote: "As part of the EU and the Schengen zone, Poland, through free will and a referendum, contracted to receive certain benefits and hold to certain obligations" - to create impression that obligations of Poland towards the EU included admittance of the refugees onto Polish territory, which seems to be a pure poppycock.


Ah the same obligations that never existed before negations took place but don't let facts get into the way of your ideological bigotry.


Do I hear faint echoes in your words of the collective mantra - " resistance is futile"?


I understand that overwhelming majority of those refugees are young males. Instead of building a strew man you better heed your own advice and do your homework.

" what is joined up thinking? Is that even in English? "

'joined up thinking' is politician-speak.
For example, one branch of a council not paying out the housing benefit they have agreed to pay to claimants, and another branch evicting council tenants for non payment of rent, is the direct opposite of 'joined up thinking'.

Exactly, and no earthly reason we shouldn't offer jobs to those of the refugees who are able - provided they learn the language.

Glancing at Vox's silly post above (Too Long:Didn't Read), it's clear that much of the opposition is just nationalism - and that has no place anywhere within the EU. I honestly think that some people would prefer a Ukrainian to, say, an Algerian.

It will be good when they come - hopefully it will create a precedence and a synergy. these people who risked life and limb to get to Europe are precisely the sort of people we want.

Split up? They are already split up - they come from different countries, different continents and vastly different cultural backgrounds.

Family life? Polish law (re. immigration) defines family as a person's spouse (only one spouse) and minor children and that is that. If the father wants to bring the wife and children here, that will help assimilate the entire family since the children are more likely to learn Polish language and traditions and therefore grow up to contribute positively to Polish society.

You didn't actually answer my question - but talked about another issue.

That has become even more of a Tory rag. How much does the British man who has never worked cost Britain each year?

More than that I should think. A skewed study.

What was that again about statistics?

Sir Andrew Green...mmm...I'm almost an academic in comparison with that nationalist buffoon.

The report is by an independent group, "Migration Watch" and I note that you did not argue with the findings. Instead you deflect by

slamming the Telegraph, when, the report was also mentioned in the Guardian, is that a Tory rag as well? Successive British governments have always tried to hide the true numbers and costs related to immigrants (I believe that the Labour party actually apologised for this prior to the last election). The feckless British who do not work are a British problem and should be dealt with. That is no excuse for importing foreigners to do the same.

I do not speak for Poland, I just try to exercise, common sense.

'Migration Watch' is a discredited extreme right-wing anti-immigration (and anti-Polish) pressure group associated with some very dodgy individuals. Choose your sources more carefully.


Not in a negative way.

And what's immigration to the UK got to do with helping refugees in Poland? Sounds like you're just afraid of people coming to live in PL.

I see you didn't read my post but you know is silly. Impressive precognitive skills. Seriously, I know that you know that I know you have nothing to say in a way of actual response beside your old ideological nonsense.


It is clear to you dear sir as you have been indoctrinated by your ideology and you are unable to think rationally. Those of us who are addressing the issue basing it on realistic and rational assumptions do not share you carefree clarity typical to fanatics and fools.


We are the Borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. Yes jon, we heard it all before, now get real.


Absolutely, they will create a very positive synergy when confronted by gay parade, all those explosive bursts of energy. I'm sure it will be a splendid spectacle.

Sorry Avalon that I thought you were British.

As you are clearly of another nationality (which is all to your credit), I will tell you.

Migration Watch is the scum of the earth and does not represent the views of the fair-minded and educated British masses.

Or just having read some of them before. Now the first few words are enough. Beyond that is just weird stuff. Same with your previous user name


This is true and issues to do with immigration levels in the UK (actually lower than France or Germany) have b. all to do with compassionate humanitarian aid to this small number of distressed people that Poland has accepted as part of their EU membership (along with all the subsidies plus the right themselves to migrate round Europe).

Too many nationalists here, clutching at straws. Sad to see someone from the one country in Europe that has produced the highest number of refugees whinging about a handful in genuine need.

The last time I looked at my passport it had "British" as my nationality, not that it means much in today's world. I really do not need you to tell me anything. From what you have written so far, any opinion other than your socialist views, will never be acceptable.

Lets just say that we agree to differ. I have seen at first hand how the multicultural vision has turned out in the UK, France and Germany and I am not impressed. I can live without it.

Goodnight.

i don`t like EU pressure on Poland. i love Poland and want that Poland survive EU. you know people, Poland is older then EU. Poland existed long before EU and, to put cross on myself, would live long after EU.

Let EU (read- west of Europe) sit nicely. Nicely.

At this stage, I just think Poland should mostly focus on accepting/helping persecuted minorities from the conflict areas in Syria/Iraq/potentially other areas. Persecuted minorities there means Christians, Yazidis, potentially Alewis, Druze, etc. Some of these people face death/slavery/forced conversions just based on their religion/identity in ISIS/Sunni Muslim extremist-controlled areas.

I saw a documentary about the migrants arriving by boat. Many of them are from Eritrea and sub-Saharan Africa. In the interviews, some of these people actually have some professional training. While it's totally understandable the Eritreans want to improve their lives by getting better jobs and escaping a repressive Eritrean regime (apparently military service there can last many years), I just think there are people who are even more worse off than them (i.e. refugees who may actually be killed just based on their religion or ethicity). Some of the migrants are trully needy, but some migrants are just opportunistic in trying to get to Europe (you can't really blame them to want to improve there lives -- EVERYONE wants that). In any case, Poland or the EU can't help all of them. There is a limit to everything. I don't have a short-term solution.

In the long term, the EU should maybe look at ways how non-EU immigrants (from the Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia) can immigrate to the EU legally. I don't know what system is in place now -- it probably varies from country to country -- maybe the EU should have a system like the Green Card system in the US (I don't know all the details on this so don't attack me). Immigrants to the EU should not be JUST refugees or people under family reunification schemes (again I don't know the % so don't attack me).

Some things to consider regarding refugees (I'm sort of directing this to more of the left-leaning comentators):
1. The boat migrants pay traffickers large sums of money to get into the EU. Just accepting this setup is not good for anybody. EU should not be enabling traffickers (they are basically exploiting people).

2. Needy refugees should ideally be taken in and applications processed (by the EU) from refugee camps in safe areas outside the EU or other areas. This way they arrive legally.

3. Countries in the EU have every right to be selective as to whom they will accept. They also have every right to defend their borders. I mean I don't think any EU country should accept migrants with a fundamentalist Muslim/Salafist mindset. These people are sexist/homophobic and are a real threat especially now with ISIS, Boko Haram, and numerous other terrorist groups (NOTE: SOME of the migrants could even more homophobic and sexist than some right-wings groups). I see Salafists as basically a hate group (so no it's not about freedom of religion or multiculturism).

4. People should not be forced to be refugees or illegal migrants due to their economic situation. EU and wealthy countries should help the developing world with investments, training, etc. I mean I know a little bit of this is happening. It's NOT just about providing aid to corrupt regimes in Africa or giving money to NGOs (I'm not convinced that all NGOs are necessarily good).

5. Lastly people in the developing countries should not be made felt helpless. The EU and the West should empower these people to solve their own problems, and not just give handouts. I know some of this is happening.

I realize I will be attacked on my comments from both the left and right. All I'm going to say is that we need to look at this practically. It's not realistic to prevent migration and it's not realistic to be very permissive and let everyone in. Keywords: BALANCE and SELECTIVITY

This is a pragmatic approach. The world is becoming a very small place and migration WILL happen - look how a million Poles spilled into the UK overnight. This will happen again and again. The current project to settle 1200 refugees is a good first step.


Very difficult to police someone's mindset - better to offer liberal secular education and adopt the French policy of laicity. Basically keep religion in the home.


We've plenty of homegrown pond life who are much the same


This makes a lot of sense. Sadly some of the loudest voices against immigration also squeal about foreign aid. They just want to see borders and do not understand that every part of the world is connected and shares a common future.

Poland cannot receive hundreds of millions of euros, cannot keep sending all its unemployed abroad and at the same time remains closed the way North Korea is.

Therefore Poland shall receive migrants as per UE's orders first of all and then gradually Poland shall have more and more immigrants (which shall be needed in a near future due to Polish population decline (low birth rate + high emigration). Since immigrants come from poorer countries, Poland shall not get immigrants from Monaco or Lichtenstein ;) but from other continents.

Poland has to ajust to the world since the world shall and will not adjust to Poland.

Poland is just a (very tiny) part of the world village.