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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees



spiritus
7 Jun 2017  #3571

I think what he meant is that terrorism, like it or not, has become the "new normal" and that society will simply have to deal with eradicating it as best it can:-)

Yes-he may have meant that but to say what he said in the aftermath of the attack and from a high profile muslim politician did nothing for his PR

mafketis
7 Jun 2017  #3572

Muslims who have moved to Northern Europe are radicalized, and probably were at home as well

All the evidence points the other direction, muslims in Northern Europe are racicalized by being failures in northern Europe because they prioritize the wrong values and/or go off the rails because their culture (old country and/or home/community) doesn't prioritize the right values and they either fail to thrive or succumb to vice. After realizing how many opportunities they've squandered and how little hope they have they self-radicalize in order to give their life meaning (and/or commit suicide).

There's no evidence of anything trending the other way (muslim communities in Europe embracing secular values and assimilation), yet well meaning fools want to perpetuate this gruesome experience which results in tremendous suffering for all concerned.

Polonius3
7 Jun 2017  #3573

turn it in to their commie paradise

A highly marginal phenomenon, only the smallest handful of cases. Polish communists (PZPRmembers) were radishdes - red on the outside. The majorty of those who fled did not wnat to communise the West but were fleeing communist rule and wanted to improve their material status and that of their families. The Muslim radicals want to take over and Islamise the West, nay -- the whole wide world.

Polonius3
7 Jun 2017  #3574

Muslims

Wha t is happening in the Persian Gulf region may turn out to be of major significance. Saudi Arabia, which bankrolls the export of mosques (which often become hotbeds of radicalism) as well as terrorrists, has clamped down on Qatar for alleging producing terrorists. Is it possible that Muslims themselves will start reining in their radicals? Rich countries such as Saudis and Qatar could do a lot of good by stopping the cash flow to terrorists. They'd be far more harmless if all they had to hurl at the West were.....camel droppings!

Crow
7 Jun 2017  #3575

Poland, USA and Serbia should intervene on behalf of humanity. USA on Saudia, Poland on Turkey and Serbia on Albania.

Battle till the last breath >> Lepa Brena - Mile voli disko - (LIVE) - (Beogradska Arena) >> youtube.com/watch?v=FM-Gjuy8wWU

Polonius3
7 Jun 2017  #3576

should intervene on behalf of humanity

I can see you want to start the Third World War! Your compatriot who assassinated Grand Duke Ferdinand started the First.

Dirk diggler
7 Jun 2017  #3577

Polonius this is merely the pot calling the kettle black.

Saudi and Israel secretly sponsord/helps al Qaeda and al nusra, pakistan and now the Russians sponsor/help Taliban, Iran and qatar sponsors/help Hezbollah and hamas, qatar and formerly turkey sponsore isis...

This isn't going to change its just part of a grand chess game. A country can't flat out send its troops to a region to do their bidding so they use proxies - namely terrorists when the terrorists groups and sponsoring countries interests intersect. As long as the terrorists don't come to the home country and cause problems they will continue to sponsor them.. These terrorist groups are merely the leaders pawns and secret asymmetric army.

Qatar was caught and exposed that's all it is... With the Saudis people just don't care anymore because it's old news.

Also crow Poland would lose to the Turks. Poland intervening in turkey just won't happen

Lyzko
7 Jun 2017  #3578

The point is though that the attacks in Europe of late occurred NOT because the attackers were Muslims, but that they were RADICALIZED Muslims:-)

When or where they became such is really unimportant. What's key here is that the UK in particular revisit its quaint notions of bobbies leaving their firearms at the station!!

Lovely to rest on the laurels of England as some bucolic little island with water coloring and gardening as her favorite passtime and police who don't carry guns etc., but much of this, at least the latter, will have to change....ASAP.

Polonius3
7 Jun 2017  #3579

would lose to the Turks

Turkey's got NATO's second biggets army, the first of course being the USA's.

Atch
7 Jun 2017  #3580

When or where they became such is really unimportant.

I wouldn't agree with that at all Lyzko. I think that's a very important issue. Are you aware that one of the Manchester attackers lived in Ireland for a time and the Irish police are now trying to establish whether he was radicalised whilst in Ireland. Now that's a serious thing. We have a tiny Muslim community and no problems with those there are, who all appear to be well integrated. There are apparently about thirty individuals on whom the Guards keep a close watch but this guy wasn't one of them. What it shows is that this threat is everywhere and that nobody can afford to be complacent about it.

Incidentally there is now discussion in Ireland about whether the Irish Guards could respond as QUICKLY as the London police in the event of a terrorist attack, bearing in mind that we also have an unarmed police force:

rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0607/880962-garda/

Dirk diggler
7 Jun 2017  #3581

@Polonius3

Exactly that's why poland, a NATO member, will not militarily intervene in another more powerful NATO members country.

As far as biggest army/navy/air force yes perhaps turkey has that in sheer numbers and symmetrical strength. However id put them behind England and France for one reason - nukes... Or lack thereof for turkey.

Atch
7 Jun 2017  #3582

You can't put the Turkish army in the same league as the Brits. They simply don't compare in terms of training, discipline and professionalism.

Dirk diggler
7 Jun 2017  #3583

We're talking about NATO members in general. Thats why I'm saying yes perhaps in terms of sheer troop size or number of tanks/planes/etc or whatever yes turkey would rank pretty high. But yes I wouldn't put them in 2nd place in terms of overall strength because England and France have nukes.. And also better equipment and a more professional army..

Its like with north Korea. They have the 4th largest army in terms of sheer troop size - most of whom build fancy ski resorts or work on farms rather than do military training.. Most of their equipment is rusted out soviet and Chinese obsolete junk. Nonetheless, its still a huge headache because even a nuke weaker than Hiroshima and old rusty artillery can still reach Seoul.

johnny reb
7 Jun 2017  #3584

Can I step in and then step out here.
Rankings of the most powerful militaries in the world.
1. USA
2. Russia
3. China
4. India
6. France
8. Germany
10. Turkey
11. Israel
13. Australia
19. Poland

Dirk diggler
7 Jun 2017  #3585

Imo Israel should be ranked a tad higher and Germany lower. They have way more warplanes and tanks than turkey and also a secret nuke program. Also I don't see pakistan in the list and they have more nukes than India.

Also saudi is ranked I believe 24 internationally placing it below Poland.. If saudi and Poland went to war I think id put my money on the Saudis

Crow
7 Jun 2017  #3586

I can see

take your glasses. You don`t see well. I merely say that USA and western Europe aren`t only factor capable and allowed to intervene. Serbia and Poland also can.

Squatting Slav TV: Mighty Poland will not bow to Islam/EU



Poland is the best. We Serbians are happy to have Poles, same as Poles are blessed to have us.

spiritus
7 Jun 2017  #3587

No offence Crow but please-enough with the Serbian stuff.

Lyzko
7 Jun 2017  #3588

@Atch

I take your point and respect your viewpoint, although I readily disagree for the following reasons! Firstly, most radicalized ISIS followers evidently became radicalized while in Europe, even though many may well have been harmlessly moderate in their home countries. Secondly, the UK failed so miserably on background checking, it continues to amaze me, others too I'm sure, how they were allowed into Britain in the first place:-)

nothanks
7 Jun 2017  #3589

most radicalized ISIS followers evidently became radicalized while in Europe

Not necessarily IMO. They have "better" target opportunities because of legal status, home/job/student occupation and are overall smarter/better educated.

But I can also buy the definition of radical being: giving up more. As in the Europeans gave up a reasonable life while the actual desert occupiers might appreciate such a lifestyle

nothanks
7 Jun 2017  #3590

No offence Crow but please-enough with the Serbian stuff.

No joke, that Squatting Slav video brought a tiny tear to my eye

> Notre Dame hammer attacker was journalist in Sweden, received EU prize for "journalism against discrimination"

These stories are becoming more bizarre

Atch
8 Jun 2017  #3591

Rankings of the most powerful militaries in the world.

Your list doesn't have any 5, 7 or 9! in the top ten! Where are they?

I don't see pakistan in the list and they have more nukes than India.

And you don't see the UK there either. Any list of the world's most powerful militaries that doesn't place the UK in the top ten is highly suspect. Perhaps it was in one of the positions omitted from Johnny's list. Here's another list, based on equipment only. I've just selected the top ten. The source is Business Insider:

1. USA
2. Russia
3. China
4. India
5. United Kingdom
6. France
7.Japan
8. Turkey
9. Germany
10. Italy

mafketis
8 Jun 2017  #3592

most radicalized ISIS followers evidently became radicalized while in Europe, ... it continues to amaze me, ....how they were allowed into Britain

They weren't. Their parents were.

Again, ISIS followers in Europe are overwhelmingly local born (into immigrant communties) and self-radicalize as a result of life failure (again, the educational, economic and social realities of muslim communities in Europe are pretty dire). Either they turn to religion to try to regain a sense of self-worth and fall prey to manipulative radical imams (who, nb, do not engage themselves in anything risky) or turn to radicalization as a form of suicide by cop in an attempt to gain in death what they could not in life (meaning).

The reason that their parents were let in is complicated. But at present the elite consensus is that there are no important differences between different ethno-racial-religious groups in terms of social norms and that there are no inherent conflicts between groups that cannot be overcome throug judicious amounts of progressive secular humanism.

Many tragedies of the 20th century came from overestimating differences between ethno-racial groups while many tragedies in the 21st century are coming (and will conitnue to come) from underestimating these differences.

Dirk diggler
8 Jun 2017  #3593

@mafketis

Couldn't agree more... However I still believe that these Muslims have far more opportunities than they would in their native countries - otherwise their parents wouldn't of bothered coming in the first place. With the exception of a few super wealthy oil and gas monarchies, most Muslim countries don't have a high HDI or a large average income.

mafketis
8 Jun 2017  #3594

However I still believe that these Muslims have far more opportunities than they would in their native countries

They would have fewer opportunities (because the muslim world doesn't produce many opportunities) but they wouldn't have the overwhelming sense of alienation and injustice that they do in Europe.

otherwise their parents wouldn't of bothered coming in the first place

The parents perceived opportunities and tried to fit in minimally (while passing their culture shock trauma onto their children). They probably also pass on muslim supremacist ideas so when the locally born move into young adulthood they think they should be running things (and can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of the kuffar being so much better off).

A co-worker from a country with a problem muslim population (who's sympathetic to their plight) said that a big problem is the parent's generation doesn't much value (Secular) education.

The co-worker pointed out that as a teen he had lots of stupid ideas and wasted lots of time pursuing them (as all teens do) but the adults in his environment kept pushing him in the right direction while muslim teens don't get that so when they go off the rails there's no one to stop them (and no answers for any life problems outside the mosque which is where they go when they start to realize things are going wrong).

spiritus
8 Jun 2017  #3595

they wouldn't have the overwhelming sense of alienation and injustice that they do in Europe.

Sounds about right. Sometimes I think we overthink the analysis of these idiots e.g. what has the West done to make them so alienated ? Are they pi**ed off with us because of past foreign policy etc.

I think the reality is they are uneducated and lack brain cells. They probably watch Al Pacino in Scarface on an endless loop and are perfect vessels for any ideology that taps into their religion (righteous sense of duty) and machismo

Dirk diggler
8 Jun 2017  #3596

I wouldn't classify all Muslim immigrants into this category though. There are many who are well assimilated, wealthy, educated and very worldly - especially the Turks who have been in Germany since the 70s. The new wave of migrants though... Not as much although many of them speak English rather well. I do question why there is a disproportionate amount of men to women and why many of these men wear the same $100 Italian t shirts as I do while clutching a $500 cell phone.. One of my good friends and former coworkers Saad is from Pakistan and he came here like 6 years ago and is around my age (meaning he came in his late teens early 20s). He speaks perfect English and is only religious when it comes to holidays. His situation is a bit different to most pakis though - his dad worked for the British government so his family was far wealthier and rather bubbled. Anyway, he's actually very critical of the paki government and the populations support of extremist mullahs and such. You have to realize in many of these countries the people have little to no education so when some imam tells them the crusaders the Zionists and all kuffars are the source of their problems, they believe it.. Some still hold onto these beliefs even after they come to Europe but many recognize that their new European home is different than their own. There's pros and cons to everything. The bottom line is that these migrants left their homes in Iraq syria Bangladesh Eritrea Ghana wherever for Europe and stayed there. They wouldn't of done that if the pros didn't outweigh the cons.

As far as alienation and injustice, I don't think that Muslims are treated by government institutions much different than any one else. If anything many governments have taken priority to help the migrants especially with housing more so than the local natives. For example in Germany the government kicked out elderly renters and also rented out a 4 star hotel to make room for migrants while in Sweden the government rented a cruise ship to house migrants. In another scenario, migrants were housed in some out of use palace with fine furniture and oil paintings but yet they complained about the slow internet - which is free I may add. In another scenario, migrants have actually gotten away with some pretty bad things so the government and police doesn't appear racist. One example is the whole case of mostly Pakistani men that had kidnapped and sexually abused children over a span of years and years in the UK. Apparently child services and police knew about this but didn't want to intervene till it got very serious so as to not be perceived as racist. Unfortunately that's the world we live in now - you can have the best intentions and not judge people for things that they were born into and hence can't control but you still have to be careful not to say or do something that can be perceived as racist.

I don't think its the parents though who instill these extremist ideas once they arrive in england, france, etc but more so the imam who takes advantage of their situation. Its the same thing with gangs here - they go after the kids who are alienated, perhaps live in poverty, their parents aren't present to watch over them either because they're working or simply aren't too interested, etc. In both cases, they are gradually convinced to join something 'bigger than themselves' and seek a sense of family, camaraderie, etc. In places like Afghanistan its a little different - over there in rural areas some parents will give up their kid to become a jihadi or suicide bomber.

When people move to a new country they tend to first live in areas that have people of the same nationality, religion, etc. Its the same in the us - the new polish immigrants tend to move to the polish neighborhoods. In Europe well the Muslims tend to go to Muslim areas. Its simply easier because you're around your own people. The problems start occurring when there's terrorists, radical imams and neighbors don't speak out about it. Its the same thing here though in some Hispanic areas - everyone knows which gang runs which block because they're outside all the time and if there's a shooting and cops come no one will talk even if they know who did it.

If you want to know at which point there's too many migrants, its once migrants start saying there's too many:
youtu.be/Re4wpZ-NPgM]

For one i can tell you most Turks in Dortmund aren't too happy with all the new arrivals.

Personally, I just don't want Poland to fall victim to terrorism and to continue to have a polish majority with polish laws, customs and traditions reigning supreme. Were not going to allow people to march down the street with Sharia 4 Poland signs like has happened in uk, belgium, etc. We won't allow our women to be assaulted by anyone. We won't allow for people to set fire to police cars with no repercussions. In conclusion, we don't want to have the same type of headaches that germany, france, etc have. I'm all for helping people and if we are to accept migrants they must be vetted extremely carefully, provided with services to help them assimilate - I.e. employment agencies, language services, and have a social worker check up on them every so often to help spot issues of abuse, alienation, or anything else that could lead a person down a wrong path. Germany accepted way too many migrants in way too short of a time. If they carefully vetted who came in and provided them with assimilation services and also distributed them around the country so they're forced to interact with others and not just muslims or flooded majority Muslim areas like the special zones in France with police they wouldve had far less problems.

mafketis
8 Jun 2017  #3597

I wouldn't classify all Muslim immigrants into this category though

Of course not, I'm profiling the ones that end up driving trucks into crowds or blow up little girls or try to stab people. The profile is obvious enough but the media does not draw attention to it or the processes that produce them.

As far as alienation and injustice, I don't think that Muslims are treated by government institutions much different than any one else.

Part of the muslim world view is that muslims are better than others and should be in charge of things. That they realize not only are they not in charge of anything but they never will be creates cognitive dissonance that (for some) ends up in them becoming crazy religious killers.

most Turks in Dortmund aren't too happy with all the new arrivals

I know some educated, secularly oriented muslims who absolutely do not want their less educated, more religious countrymen flooding into their new countries.

he's actually very critical of the paki government and the populations support of extremist mullahs and such

Ask him what he thinks of the Ahmadis.... or intermarriage between muslim women and non-muslim men.

Dirk diggler
8 Jun 2017  #3598

Well he's not very religious and I know for a fact he likes white girls the most lol. As far as marrying a non Muslim I don't know I'll ask him. I'm guessing hed say he probably wouldn't care but to make passing down cultural and religious identity to his kids, he may prefer a paki Muslim woman. Im the same way - I don't care what her nationality or religion is. If the girls hot ill leave her out of breath just like any other. As long as she doesn't shout Allah akbar at the end... However as far as marriage ill most likely marry a polish woman. Itd be just to make things easier if we have kids - teach them polish, go to polish mass on Sundays, etc. Some kids coming from multiracial marraiges don't have any identity issues but some feel as if they can't identify with either the dads race/religion/etc or the moms. They thus feel alienated, lonely, etc.

You are right though - many of the Muslims who have assimilated and adapted into their new European society don't want a whole sudden deluge of migrants. Its the same way in the us - some Mexicans feel as if there's already enough in the us. Others simply dont care while the more radical imams (there's a video online of this particular sermon) say that Muslims will continue to flood Europe and simply outbreed Europeans. He goes on to say how European men are infertile and that European women thus will search for Muslim men.

Crow
8 Jun 2017  #3599

No offence Crow but please-enough with the Serbian stuff.

No problem. May I now continue? I can

You know pane, Poland can`t endure this without Serbia. See, for many years already, I nicely telling to Poles what is EU. For years they tolerated my stories. No, not that they trusted me, God forgive them, just, in their good souls they have that sympathy for us Serbians and they gave me right to speak and so they tolerated me. But, now they themselves founded out what is EU and they now know, many sh** from EU yet to come. Now my Polish brothers and sisters sound as Serbians. Actually, even official Poland starting to sound as official Serbia. I elaborated that already. What we see now is causal connection of Serbians and Poles. Meaning, when Serbs are attacked, Poles must brace themselves because, they know they are next.

mafketis
8 Jun 2017  #3600

Poland can`t endure this without Serbia

I assure you, Poland and Serbia can do okay without each other. What Serbians really need are Albanians and Turks to give their puny, little, insignificigant country some illusion of meaning.


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