Poland - Serbia etc. thread

A nutcase like after-Tito-Yugoslavia becoming a member of the Union??? Highly doubtful....The whole EU could had become involved in that ethnic cess pit!

Even today it's near impossible anytime soon for the ex-yugo countries to become members...for many good reasons! Kosovo will join the EU the same day Turkey will...

(Croatia is the exception of the rule...because of Germany's support.)

Yeah but several countries were plotting independence right after Tito died and Milosevic came to power. I think that Yugoslavia could've been saved if the Serbs agreed to power share and other countries especially Western nations didn't help the seperatists

...the latter was a consequence of the former, so it was highly unlikely.

Slovenia for sure had long planned to break away (with a separate language and richer than the rest and tired of transferring wealth to Beograd) and to a lesser degree Croatia.... but look at Catalonia an independence movement for how long (and independence has never polled over 50% in opinion surveys). It's a long way from some people thinking about independence to a functional movement and majority support...

Wtihout Milosevic Slovenia would probably have broken off but the rest could have stayed together because of greater language similarity and ethnic mixing. His maps of 'greater Serbia' that included large areas of other republics made people itchy to move toward the exits... (and Tudjman was willing and able to capitalize on that)

Except to Nato, which has stationed additional troops there. Though to be honest, one can be forgiven if one does not know immediately where they are. But to meet their presidents and claim that they caused the Balkan wars is a bit much. One of the many examples why Trump is not intellectually qualified to be president.


That is an ahistorical view with the benefit of hindsight at best. We now know that the dissolution of Yugoslavia led to war, so lookong for an alternate scenario is warranted. However it is still important to recognize that politicians at the time had no such knowledge. Crucially this does not adress the issue that the Western politicians could not reasonably argue for the unity for Yugoslavia when they also argued for the freedom of the Warsaw pact states. Furthermore as already stated, the Western politicians knew that there was simply no support for Yugoslavia left in Croatia and Slovakia. A possible EEC membership would not only have been completely unrealistic in a reasonable timeframe (and thus useless as leverage) it would also have required a full democratization of Yugoslavia, which would have les to its' break-up anyway (because its' nationalities wanted to be free).

What nonsense! The situations had nothing in common..... the Warsaw pact was tying sovereign countries into an unwanted military alliance while Yugoslavia was a country with problems that probably could have been solved had Germany not had it so consistently wrong (Germany wasn't the only bad actor but it was a significant destructive force in the region)

Slovenia had their own language and had long been rather separate from the rest of the country (in addition to being the most prosperous) while the mad nationalists were counteracted to some extent by the very real ethnic mixing that had been going on in the country for decades. The real losers were mixed families many of which ended up being torn apart by Germany's mad desire to recognize countries prematurely.

It's funny how much of a difference there is between average wages in Serbia and Montenegro vs Croatia and Slovenia. The average wage is even higher than Polands atleast in Slovenia and is closer to places like Czech republic. The minimum wage in Slovenia and Croatia is like an average wage in Serbia and montenegro

The Warsaw pact and Yugoslavia forced nations into an international body which its' respective people had little to no sympathy for. Just like Poland was forced into the Soviet sphere of influence, so was Croatia into Yugoslavia.

If it was right to let Poland choose its' own path, it was also right to let Croatia do the same. Or as one German politician put it: "Force is all that kept the Warsaw Pact and Yugoslavia together. We desperately urged the Soviets not to use their tanks to supress the demonstrations in Leipzig. Therefore we can not ask Belgrad to use tanks against the people in Zagreb."


Perhaps Yugoslavia could have survived partly intact with e.g. Montenegro still being a part of it. That chance was however squandered by the Serbs when they alienated the other people with their belligerent stance.

Everybody soon realized that Croatia and Slovenia were lost and would not remain part of it unless violence was forced. And knowing today what kind of people were in charge, violence was always inevitable, except maybe if the West had intervened massively militarily early on, but that was never a realistic option.

Anybody who now argues that the recognition of Croatia was premature simply ignores the realities of the situation. Germany not only realized this earlier than others, it also paid off strategically for the West. Slovenia and Croatia are nowadays firm Western allies partly out of gratitude for this early recognition.

Or in other words, if you think recognizing Croatia was wrong, you should also think that Poland ought to have stayed in the Warsaw pact.

No..... that is just a terrible analogy... a closer analogy might be the Baltic republics or Ukraine in the USSR.

USSR - single country (including sovereign nations like Lithuania incorporated by force)

Soviet sphere - different countries overly influenced and in unwanted alliance with the USSR

Yugoslavia - single country made up of different ethno-religious groups with different levels of attachment to and alienation from the idea of Union...


It's not the final fact of recognition but the timing. Granted German recognition of Croatia wasn't as disastrously premature as its recognition of Bosnia which led to massive levels of death and destruction... but it was still premature. Early recognition of Slovenia wasn't an issue but recognizing Croatia (which still had a crapton of red flags) was not the wisest move

Who were also forced into it just like Poland was into the SU. The only difference was that Poland was a satellite state with the illusion of its' own government, while e.g. Lithuania was directly annexed. In the end, not Warsaw or Vilnius ran things, but Moscow. So not much of a difference down the line.

The point is the Croats were just as entitled to their freedom as the Polish people were.


There was nothing premature about either recognition because that implies that things would have gone better if things had been left to their own devices. Which is a very naive view at best, considering that people like Milosovic and Karadzic were in charge.


This is honestly one of the more ridiculous interpretations of the Yugoslav wars. The peaceful Milosevic, Karadzic et al. would surely have come up with a peaceful compromise if not for those evil Western countries. That completely ignores that e.g. the premise Milosevic's entirr ideology made a peaceful compromise impossible.

Let us not pretend that it were outside powers that forced both side to take up arms, or that a simple recognition forced the Serbs to act. What led to death and destruction was mostly the Serbian insistence to not accept the reality and instead trying to change it to their liking. And in return, they tarnished their reputation for a long time.

Slovenia was clear: it had only a small Serb minority and a different language. Croatia was much more difficult, and it was a horrible move to encourage Croatian independence with a large Serb minority that was clearly deeply unhappy about the idea of independence, especially after what had happened during WW2.

What should have happened was to allow Slovenia to go, but to make it clear to Croatia that only a loose confederation would be supported by the EEC. It would have forced Tudjman into finding a solution to accommodate the Serb minority, who had every right to be terrified after Serbs were purged from jobs in 1990 after Tudjman/HDZ's victory. Encouraging Croatia was very clearly one of the causes of war, and led to Bosnia doing the same.

About who was in charge - remember that Yugoslavia was still a federation. Karadzic had very little power in Bosnia, and Milosevic would never have won control of Yugoslavia as a whole. Tudjman and Milosevic were key, and let's not forget that both of them also had plans to divide Bosnia between them, with conflict between them being used to decide who would take some disputed areas. Tudjman only backed off on that idea when the US made it very clear that they weren't going to support the Bosniak-Croat conflict - had the West stayed silent, the Bosniaks would probably be in exile today.

To make anything clear to Croatia apart from total uncritical acceptance....


From what I remember (you know more about this) they were tenatively maybe working out an agreement and preemptive German recognition was a sign that no compromise was possible... just retreat to your corners and come out fighting....

A couple of years ago what I heard (from people from that part of the world) is that Bosnia is barely a country anymore and steadily being incorporated by Greater Croatia and Gr Greater Serbian forces (at least no military....)

German trust of Croatia (given their WWII record) was essentially inexcusable and incredibly short sighted...

So we should have denied the Croatian majority their right for independence because of a minority, while the majority was clearly against staying in Yugoslavia?


By what kind of right would the EEC have told the Croats that they should remain part of Yugoslavia? Especially while they were encouraging the Eastern European states to become independent. What you are suggesting is a completely unrealistic proposal. There is simply no argument against the recognition of Croatia, except that it would have possibly caused less violence. Which again seems unrealistic, given what kind of people were in charge in the Balkans.


You aware that the fighting had already started more than a month before Germany recognized Croatia right? At this point it was clear that there was simply no way to preserve Yugoslavia with Croatia and Slovenia still being a part of it.


It played out perfectly though, with very little effort, given the Western's reluctance to get involved militarily in the Balkans. It also made Slovenia and Croatia staunch Western allies, who are now also in the EU. So it was certainly not short sighted. As to being "inexcusable". As repeatedly pointed out, the recognition was morally justified and more of a recognition of reality. The thought that Croatia and Slovenia could have remained part of Yugoslavia by the end of 1991 is ludicrous.

So you're in favor of welcoming Catalonia as the newest member of the Eu? How is the poor oppressed Catalonian majority any different than the Croats... or the Flemish!

Catalonian independence is far off...much nearer would be an independent Scotland. Just read that a new poll showed now a majority of Scots in favour of a break.

There was a movement that sought to divide California up into like three different states. The people got the requires signatures I believe it was 10k to hold a referendum. However, the California government I believe the state supreme Court oy vey'd and shut it down.

So much for democracy....

I hope you are joking here.


At least one of the main arguments against Scottish independence - that they would leave the EU - will no longer count.

youtu.be/qlB9Yv2W8OU

Óró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile

youtu.be/KbEgBHTNKoQ

Amhrán na bhFiann - The Soldier's Song

youtu.be/DPfXm4HOqBg

IRELAND'S CALL

and which "Lord" are we going to send when the Brits go Balkans?

My suggestion would be the Duke...

youtu.be/F4B7dWsmdao

The Hague = Nuremberg 2.0

youtu.be/AfwfhWHilLE

dr. Vojislav Šešelj: "In Hitler's Germany I could expect to receive a more fair trial than here!"

Certainly one of the most exemplary attempts of bringing justice to a region of injustice.

news.yahoo.com/tiffany-trump-stomps-serbia-wearing-221252216.html

Surely President Trump must have been aware that his youngest daughter Tiffany Trump chose Serbia (from all possible holiday destinations in the world) for her spring break vacation and decided to stay in Belgrade for 11 days.

kurir.rs/zabava/pop-kultura/3285917/tifani-tramp-je-stigla-u-crnu-goru-sakrila-se-u-tivtu-i-uziva-u-tajnosti

Tiffany Trump then visited Crna Gora and stayed in the luxurious Porto Montenegro in Tivat.

:)

I didn't know Tiffany knew how to write in Cyrillic script? ;)


This is where Tiffany Trump stayed, at the Pearl of the Adriatic, the video was shot in Tivat:

youtu.be/VUtN0aFWOgY

Tiffany Trump grow up with Trump`s family housemaid woman from Serbian USA diaspora. Knowing a lot about Serbia as the Sarmatian core and original birth-place of the West and being familiar that great Goethe, Grimm brothers, Tolkien and many others studied Serbian language for exactly that reason, Trump also wanted his housemaid to teach his children Serbian language.

Trump knows and have many available info. He won`t tolerate western European betrayal of Serbia.

Its not just accidental that Israeli PM Netanyahu welcomed Serbian president Vucic with words that ``Jews and Serbs cooperated already in time of Roman Republic (500 BC)``. Mighty magnates agreed that false theories about Slavic (ie Sarmatian) past must be abandoned and truth must be said.

It sounds like more made up lies and BS, prove it Crow?

Back it up with some facts, provide some links. Im sure you cant because its all just a bunch of BS!

He won't.Because it is BS.
Why would a Slovenian wife of the President of The USA want to encourage anything Serbian at all?
Crow just wishes Trumps wife was a Serb.......

@Miloslaw
@Joker
People, Trump`s housemaid was a Serbian woman. You didn`t know that?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But anyway, now major economic news > by financial times Serbia is first in the world in Greenfield investments !!!

Greenfield FDI Performance Index 2019: Serbia storms to top
fdiintelligence.com/Locations/Asia-Pacific/Greenfield-FDI-Performance-Index-2019-Serbia-storms-to-top

No, I didn't. I don't care about such silly things and because its total BS! Prove it then? I like how you quickly changed the subject LOL


I wouldn't even respond but he's always linking the US and the UK to his falsehoods. Im surprised that anyone would take him seriously with his track record.