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Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it



jon357
15 Mar 2014  #61

I'm not sure Nathan lives anywhere that people watch the two tv stations you mentioned. I certainly don't here in PL. You're quite free to believe, Marek, that Russian state tv is a more reliable source of news however most would consider it propaganda ridden.
bluesfan
15 Mar 2014  #62

while their country is invaded by Russia

The Russians haven't invaded yet... wait 'til Sunday ;)
Nathan
15 Mar 2014  #63

I read press from all over the world. Just a few names: Deutsche Welle, Le Monde, BBC, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Gazeta Wyborcza, Wiadomosci, Hromadskie TV from Ukraine, which translates news live and has a section where the journalists read what the world renown newspapers say about the events in Ukraine. As John said I don't watch either of the two and have no idea about their reliability. The most important I don't stick to one source and more so of the country where Freedom of Speech ratings in 2013 by Reporters without Borders:

Germany - 17
Poland - 22 (Good job, Poland!)
France - 37
....
Ukraine - 126 (I know for sure that after Ukraine toppled the regime of Yanukovich, our ratings will get closer rating to those of many other European countries). I can see the change already. And I am very happy.

Russia - 148

en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html

Notice that the first 12 countries in the list are those that are in the EU. Also most of these newspapers are available in English, so why not spread one's mind a bit, instead of reading RT only?
jon357
15 Mar 2014  #64

Worth looking at as many news sources as possible. The most intelligent piece I've seen (though written for a UK audience and therefore different from something for domestic consumption in Ukraine) was by Marina Lewycka in the Guardian.

Also a good interview with Evgeny Lebedev (Russian but not aggressively nationalist, owner of the Independent/Evening Standard and Russia's best known gay billionaire) which takes a Russian point of view but one that a lot of Ukrainians wouldn't disagree with.
Nathan
15 Mar 2014  #65

Worth looking at as many news sources as possible.

Absolutely.
Just to get back to the topic about the crisis in Ukraine - video of an older lady hit by the pro-russian fascist, "defenders of the Russian speakers" as they call themselves (the older lady speaks Russian, btw). Here is a video and my translation of the dialogue. This is a video from Feodosia, one of the occupied by the Russians cities in the Crimea. This woman speaks to the Russian soldiers and pro-russian activists (she is Russian-speaking - I say this for those who still think that Russian language somehow corresponds to the political views, allegiances or sympathies):

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7Obuy2QEQBE
Xromium
16 Mar 2014  #66

Is this topic a joke? Im serious here.

The topic is a headline in Washington Post - I hope they were not joking
Serious?? Ofcourse this is serious - now that Crimea will become part of the holy empire, our boys in uniform will have to get their rusted tanks out of the bunker and into the plains of Lubelszczyza ... the F-16 overhead can give them cover
Crow
16 Mar 2014  #67

and, why would Poland in the first place provoke Russia? What Poland has with it that some American and western European magnates and bankers miscalculated, strategically went too far in Yugoslavia, Serbia, Ukraine, Libya,... and now Russia responding? Naturally.
SeanBM
16 Mar 2014  #68

Crimea River
PlasticPole
17 Mar 2014  #69

What I don't understand is why won't they let Crimea go with Russia? Now there's talk of sanctions from the west and this and that. I disapprove. This region voted to be part of Russia which means these people are very dissatisfied with being a part of Ukraine. So why not recognize their voices of dissent instead of finding ways to punish for their freedom to choose?
Nathan
17 Mar 2014  #70

PP, are you serious??? Having over 30,000 Russian troops present in the Crimea, armed people walking the streets, beating the journalists from all over the world, a few Ukrainian journalists are still missing, Russian citizens taking part in the voting, the invitation to vote comes to people who are long ago dead, no international observers are present, Russia selected the "observers", armed people outside and inside the voting stations, the Tatars minority (which makes 12% of the Crimean population, which is around 350,000 people) refused to participate in this farce, the whole idea of the "referendum" is against the Constitution of Ukraine and of the autonomic republic of Crimea, as well as against the international law, supported by the decision of the Venetian Commission, the Crimean parliament voted for the "referendum" while there were armed men present and the man whose party got only 4% support on the previous elections (and who is known in the criminal circles under nickname "Goblin") was appointed with the armed men present and under closed door the prime minister of Crimea, etc..... And after all this you are saying that you don't understand? "Punish for the freedom"???? Are you really serious? Freedom is violated in the Crimea. The results are fabricated and the whole world sees it.
PlasticPole
17 Mar 2014  #71

I only posted this because of their election, Nathan. We need to gauge what the average Crimean wants.
Nathan
17 Mar 2014  #72

PP, I seriously don't recognize you. Sorry for being so familiar when talking to you, but I know you here for quite some time. What election? How are going to gauge the average Crimean if Crimea is under the occupation of Russia? And you said in the previous post that "the region voted for...". Do you think it VOTED? Do you really think that the opinions are best heard when there are gunmen at the voting stations?
4 eigner
17 Mar 2014  #73

Do you think it VOTED? Do you really think that the opinions are best heard when there are gunmen at the voting stations?

yep, Nathan has a point.
PlasticPole
17 Mar 2014  #74

PP, I seriously don't recognize you. Sorry for being so familiar when talking to you, but I know you here for quite some time. What election? How are going to gauge the average Crimean if Crimea is under the occupation of Russia? And you said in the previous post that "the region voted for...". Do you think it VOTED? Do you really think that the opinions are best heard when there are gunmen at the voting stations?

Nathan I was just going by what I saw on the evening news. It didn't look like they were unhappy or coerced. It just didn't. I saw video. Thousands of people were cheerfully waving Russian flags. They were watching fireworks.

You have to understand I am not for either side. I just call it from the sidelines. I am for fairness for everyone involved and to have all their voices acknowledged. Neither side should be bullied or punished for siding with the west or Russia imo and keeping peace is top priority.
Crnogorac3
17 Mar 2014  #75

The extremists and neo-Fascists from Majdan do not realize that the Crimea does not need any falsification of the referendum. The population of the Crimea, after the illegal putsch and violent overthrow of a democratic government, wants to live in their own country that lives by democratic standards. Majdanaši sami pali, sami se ubili.

As for Ukraine, it was screwed by the Banderovci brothers, revolutionaries and other scum of careerist politicians and criminals as Klitschko who received orders from NATO / EU.

ntv.ru/peredacha/proisschestvie/m4001/o230317
ntv.ru/peredacha/proisschestvie/m4001/o227998
Ukrainian usurpers, they chose their masters for whom they will be marionettes. Now Ukraine is paying the price of that.

Nathan, the world is not a kindergarten, when with the devil together you plant pumpkins, you end up like this. When in a state coup came to power American mercenaries and marionettes, then it has a price, expressed in the implementation of U.S. methods towards your country.
Nathan
17 Mar 2014  #76

Nathan I was just going by what I saw on the evening news. It didn't look like they were unhappy or coerced. It just didn't. I saw video. Thousands of people were cheerfully waving Russian flags. They were watching fireworks.
You have to understand I am not for either side. I just call it from the sidelines. I am for fairness for everyone involved and to have all their voices acknowledged. Neither side should be bullied or punished for siding with the west or Russia imo and keeping peace is top priority.

I have nothing to say to you anymore, if this is how you see things and swallow them. You saw video, didn't you?! ;) Have you seen how the North Koreans cried when their leader died a few years ago? Every one of them. But do you really believe that people in a state where there is no democracy and people are thrown into the jail (if they are lucky, of course) for thinking differently somebody is going not to cry? Have you seen the video of the Crimean Tatars or the Ukrainians living in the Crimea, who make up around 36% of the population and the results of the "referendum" are 96.6% against Ukraine? Tatars who make 12% categorically boycotted this voting. The older generations remember the genocide they suffered from Stalin and the fact that only after Ukraine's independence they could come back to the Crimea to start rebuilding their lives. You don't live on the moon, PP. You have mind to think. Do the math. Or you are satisfied and convinced with seeing some fireworks on TV? If so, good luck to you.
p3undone
17 Mar 2014  #77

Nathan,the Crimeans were not coerced there are so many ethnic Russians there,what makes you think that they wouldn't want to rejoin Russia?Don't get caught up in all the western propaganda.If you don't think that this coup in Kiev wasn't western backed.......Putin is no doubt a dictator and probably has visions of expanding the Russian empire again,but did people really think that Putin was going to let the EU establish a stronghold so close to home?If the situation were reversed...the US would have done the same thing.
FlaglessPole
17 Mar 2014  #78

You might take Putin's brandishing of the gas weapon as a shrewd geopolitical move. But it's a classic case of putting short-term interests ahead of long-term gain. Although the region's need for Gazprom supplies may strengthen his hand in the present, the strategy is forcing Europe to end its reliance on Russia. After the crises of 2006 and 2009, Europe increased imports from Norway and Qatar. It built new facilities for receiving liquefied natural gas, and upgraded storage capacity, so that supplies could be stockpiled in case of a cutoff. It imported more coal. Pipeline connections within the E.U. were improved, making shortages easier to alleviate. The Crimea crisis will give new impetus to these efforts. The U.K.'s foreign secretary has said that the crisis is likely to make Europe "recast" its approach to energy. A draft document prepared for a forthcoming E.U. summit deplored the Continent's "high energy dependency" and called on E.U. members to diversify their supplies. These moves are reminiscent of what happened after the oil crises of the nineteen-seventies made it clear to the West and Japan that relying on opec suppliers was foolish. Europe installed energy-saving technologies and invested heavily in nuclear energy and natural gas. France built fifty-six nuclear reactors in the fifteen years after the oil embargo of 1973.

newyorker.com/talk/financial/2014/03/24/140324ta_talk_surowiecki?utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter&utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=facebook&mbid=social_facebook
Marek11111
17 Mar 2014  #79

Obama impose a sanction on Russia and the way I see it mother Russia has U.S. petrol dollar by it's balls all they have to do is say we are accepting all currencies but the dollar so Germany can pay in Euro and other nation can pay in gold or their currency.

what that would mean to a U.S. citizens a super inflation if not a hyper inflation. Is that what the elite of U.S. want ? I think so. That what we deserve for electing idiots to fourth term.
gregy741
18 Mar 2014  #80

sick.
now they want to start nuclear weapon program.shocking and the whole world support them ..
i feel like i am living in some bizarre dream. bandera thugs "elected" with Molotov cocktail,supported by whole world,building nuclear weapon.not to mention that they barely have money for food and nukes cost massive money.

97% referendum- illegal,....nazi thugs with nukes -legal
and my government support this.somebody explain to me,how is this possible??wth is happening?

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