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Religion discussion - muslims, jews, buddhist, and christians



Atch
12 May 2018  #151

May I ask you why you keep it private?

A variety of reasons - but bear in mind I'm talking about Irish Catholics. Catholicism differs around the world. Irish Catholics are quite diverse in their views and range from very liberal like myself, to very traditional. I personally don't have any issue with sharing my views about 'the meaning of life'! I just don't want to bore the arse of people :))

Firstly, it doesn't come up in casual conversation very often. We don't talk about religion much in Ireland. It's just part of the fabric of life and taken for granted. Mostly these topics only arise in religious education or discussion settings.Secondly, if it does come up, it's a very personal thing and although Irish people are superficially extremely outgoing they're quite reserved about discussing their deeper feelings about serious issues. We tend to keep everything very light and if someone gets too serious a joke will be cracked and there's a collective sigh of relief that we're back in comfortable territory again. Finally, I think we're aware of the diversity of beliefs within Irish society and we don't want to risk offending or upsetting anybody by expressing a view that might be very different to theirs. I think you have to be especially careful talking about human suffering, death etc because you might be talking to somebody who, unknown to you, has lost a loved one in tragic circumstances or been through some terrible experience in their life.

"God deliberately does not interfere - not out of indifference, but out of great love............... to interfere would negate free will, terminating the relationship and hence the very purpose of creation."

Sorry I had to edit your words as the stupid, bloody word limit wouldn't let me use the whole thing. Anyway, this would be close to my own view. I don't know what religious education you received yourself but in the Catechism which used to be the first formal religious study in Catholic schools (I was four when I learned the Cathechism) you have a series of questions and answers which are designed to present you with a basic explanation of the principles of the faith. One of those is regarding why God made us. Why are we here? And the answer is 'to know, love and serve' Him. What does it mean to know God?

This will get a bit heavy, sorry! To know God, in my personal view, you have to experience the totality of creation, of existence, of life. That has to encompass suffering. Every human being will suffer, to a greater or lesser degree, but it's inevitable. Without it you are incomplete. God is the source of all life, including suffering. He understands it because He too feels it. I think when He sent Jesus, He was trying to give us the message, I am not merely an angry God, a wrathful God, a powerful God. I am the essence of your humanity, I suffer with you, I am suffering, I am joy, I am love, I am everything and I want to share it with you, that is why I have made you in my image - do you get it Othery, we are made in His image, we must experience all that is God and then finally return to our source, complete. I don't know if that makes sense to you and that's only a small part of my explanation of it but that's a start anyway.

I believe that in the next life the suffering you visited upon others will be visited upon you, in that you will be required to feel every pain or hurt you inflicted in your lifetime in order that you will reach full understanding. But I also believe that every joy or happiness you gave in this life you will be allowed to feel. And I think that completes your apprenticeship in understanding 'life'. Now, if you take a character like Stalin or Hitler as extreme examples, clearly they didn't learn anything of what we're supposed to learn as humans. However, the light of God is within all of us and even in them, even if it's the tiniest flicker, it can never be extinguished.So it's my belief that they will learn it in the afterlife but it will be far more painful for them than if they had learned it in this life.

I'll just give you a final analogy which is that when I was teaching, I rarely intervened in the childrens' behaviour. I would give them a few very simple rules to follow and then leave them to it. I would be watching them surreptitiously all the time but they weren't aware of it. I stepped in if it was going to get out of hand and result in hitting or kicking etc because I'm not God, I'm just a human being in charge of young children :) However allowing them to sort out their own quarrels and squabbles using the basis of the rules I've given them is far more beneficial to their development than running to teacher and having her deal with it. For human beings it's the same. We are God's children and there is no point in the human race existing at all if we don't develop. The nature of human existence is that it must be fraught with difficulties and challenges if it's to have any meaning, otherwise we might as well just be frolicking around in the Garden of Eden from the off. But that would make us 'spoiled' children who usually have very few attractive qualities and don't make very nice adults either. God, being the loving father that He is, doesn't want to do that to us so He lets go out into the world. But in this world, harsh and ugly though it can be, He also offers us glimpses of our true destiny. Some people's vision of that is completely clouded, some see a flicker of it through a mist and some see it like an endless vista from a mountain top on a beautiful sunny day. Keep your eyes peeled :))

There endeth the lesson!

NoToForeigners
18 May 2018  #152

Islam:
youtu.be/Lwl9DXI0Yzo

jon357
18 May 2018  #153

....don't talk about religion much in Ireland....

I think this is very general anyway. Most people don't think that much about religion (though often do think about deep issues) and talk about it even less. It's quite unappealing when people start preaching about their religion's beliefs or quizzing others about theirs. Too much of the externals can and does put people off hearing the real Word.

Instead of talking about ones beliefs, it's perhaps better to demonstrate them by the way one lives. As a very special person wrote: "We should try to live in such a way that if the Gospels were lost, they could be re-written by looking at us."

Atch
18 May 2018  #154

put people off hearing the real Word.

Yes, I think you have to look within yourself for that.

the way one lives

Absolutely. And one doesn't need to believe in God at all to live an exemplary life. Loads of humanists and non-believers are much more thoughtful and good people than so-called Christians.

jon357
18 May 2018  #155

This is very true; Pope Francis implied something similar.

Crow
18 May 2018  #156

Pope Francis is good man. And wise.

johnny reb
18 May 2018  #157

And one doesn't need to believe in God at all to live an exemplary life.

These are the people who walk by site and not by faith.
The sad part is those people have no hope for eternal salvation according to God's word.
Quite a risk to take since eternity is forever.

Dirk diggler
19 May 2018  #158

you will be required to feel every pain or hurt you inflicted in your lifetime in order that you will reach full understanding.

That's very similar to some Eastern schools - the ideas of karma and reincarnation. I do believe in karma. I think that if you screw people over it always comes back to haunt you and oftentimes its even worse than what you did. And on the other hand, if you do something small for a person you end up getting a reward out of the blue far greater than what you did.

The issue is that in modern society people are more focused on consumption more than anything else. It seems like people are just getting more and more rude, unfriendly, selfish, etc. Just yesterday I saw a youtube video about a couple black kids laughing at a guy who was drowning in a lake and taunting him saying no one's going to help you, that's what your dumbass gets for going in the lake, etc. and they filmed the whole thing and put it on youtube. there isn't any laws that require you to help a person in that particular state but I do believe that those kids will end up suffering in the future for it. Western society is driven by personal desires to an extreme. Now people are caring less and less about their very own family even. It sickens me to see how many parents are stuffed into nursing homes and their kids never visit. I don't know but a thought like that couldn't even cross my mind. Of course if they were extremely sick and frail and needed to always have medical care around them that's different. However, many of these seniors can totally manage living in a house or apartment of their own or with their families. And sadly I see this kind of attitude slowly creeping into Poland and the rest of Europe as well. Even just like 10-15 years ago you'd have multigenerational households and everyone helped each other out. Now it's more like the US where the kids move out, grandma and grandpa are put up somewhere else, etc. It's quite sad honestly. And that's family - people show even less compassion towards strangers. It just seems like the morality of society has been gradually going down. It's even little things like customer service at a store - even just 15 years ago people would be very helpful even at corporations. Now it's like they just want to get you off the phone, screw you over, and they act as if they're doing you a favor by helping you out. It's the same with politics - you have all these people who are supposed to be the leaders of society who are greedy as hell, they have no problem ordering killings and don't have a problem with collateral damage... Not to mention media and music which portrays money, criminality, drugs, guns, slutty women as the best things in the world. It's like now kindness and altruism is unpopular and 'uncool' but shooting people over the dumbest things or because they're from some street or neighborhood, slapping women, and standing on a corner all day getting drunk and high is 'cool'

However, there's always going to be a percentage of society that is altruistic from the heart and doesn't expect any kind of reward or anything for helping others out. Oftentimes I find these are the people that are actually the happiest in life. I remember about a year ago we were working on a couple's home who works as missionaries and they were telling me all these stories about Ethiopia which is where they primarily work. I think they receive some money but its more just a stipend but still you can tell they do it because they want to help others. These are the people who just have like an air around them where they can face anything in life with a smile on their face and get through it. And oftentimes they're also the ones where karma comes back around and the best things happen to them when they least expect it.

A recent study by a group of sociologists determined that humans are more attracted (not necessarily sexually, just in general) to a strong dominant person - even if he or she causes conflict, as long as he or she is 'winning' - than a kind, helpful person. They are more likely to follow the '*******' than the kind selfless person. The sociologists compared this to the attitudes and societies of bonobos (a type of monkey) and found the same results.

I think religion and spirituality helps people understand what the right way is and who they should admire and follow. Nonetheless, I think that people are simply hardwired to be selfish and view kindness as a weakness which is further exacerbated by the kind of society that we live in with instant gratification, pursuit of money, conspicuous consumption, glorification of violence, etc. The world really doesn't have many role models that are actually popular - especially for the youth who need it more than anyone. Kids don't look up to presidents, or nobel prize winners, or famous scientists - no they look up to rappers, Lady GaGa and people like El Chapo... Of course not all youth, but i'd say a majority in the west.

Also I think some people are in a way even scared to help a person in need especially if its like a sudden desperate situation. Like if a guy flips his car over and is laying on the ground all bloody barely breathing people will sooner whip out their cell phones and start recording it than actually helping the guy. And then if they want to help they're scared they might move him wrong and he'll hurt his spine or something and then they end up getting sued. Or like one kid in Texas who recently tried to help a motorist who thought had a flat tire or something with his car. Well he walks up to help this random person and what does he get in return? A baseball bat to the face.... he ends up in the hospital with a bunch of stiches scarring his face for life. Plus, a lot of people will take advantage of a person's kindness. If a person is generous, oftentimes people will try to get that person to be even more generous and abuse their kindness. The person recognizes it and then is turned off by the experience and is then more careful who he or she is 'kind' to next time. Also people hear about priests, rabbis, imams doing or saying messed up things whether its using congregation money to fund luxuries, abusing children, preaching hatred or using the homily to advance a particular agenda, etc. Religion is supposed to be a vanguard for altruism and when people see stuff like this they get turned off. Even with charity, people don't actually put in the time for anything because its inconvenient. I hate to say it but I've become this way too. I use to tutor kids in the hood and teach kids how to play chess on the weekends for years. I don't anymore because as I got older and graduated college I convinced myself I didn't have the time and had to work and do other things. In reality, I could still make the time it's just laziness and desire to relax on Saturday afternoons or do work around the house than spend even just 1-2 hours with some disadvanted kids.

One thing is for sure, the amount of good people, truly altruistic people is getting smaller and smaller.... although it is nice to see a person help another one out when it's least expected. There still are a lot of good people in the world but to many, including myself, I do believe that on average people are selfish and don't care for others - especially in the western world. I don't think this is going to change either. People are becoming more and more selfish even towards their own families. Everything is me me me now. All the wrong things are celebrated and cheered on. Even a people's very lives are commoditized -especially for political reasons. No one wants to do anything without expecting an immediate return. It's quite sad honestly and it really wasn't like this even just like 1 1/2 - 2 decades ago. It seems like it changed drastically around the time of the great recession or at least hastened after that. But they'll get theirs. What goes around comes around. Karma is a cruel mistress and she never forgets.

Chemikiem
19 May 2018  #159

Loads of humanists and non-believers are much more thoughtful and good people than so-called Christians.

I am very glad you have mentioned this because I am getting rather tired of hearing bullsh1t from some of the so called Christians on this forum. Quite clearly they do not follow the teachings of Christ but relish in taking the moral high ground. Oh the hypocrisy!

johnny reb
19 May 2018  #160

We are all hypocrites Pam, jump in the boat and grab an oar.
The only sinless man that has walked the face of this earth was Jesus Christ.
The rest of us ALL fall short of the glory of God.

TheOther
19 May 2018  #161

This will get a bit heavy, sorry!

Atch, just saw your long reply. Thank you, and sorry that I didn't answer earlier. I come from a mixed catholic/ protestant background, but religion was never really important at home so I slowly turned into an agnostic. As such it's alsways been hard for me to grasp how religion can explain away all the suffering that's going on in the world.

I believe that in the next life the suffering you visited upon others will be visited upon you

So what did Hitler and Stalin do in their previous lives to turn into such monsters?

The only sinless man that has walked the face of this earth was Jesus Christ.

Convenient excuse, isn't it? And I don't mean you personally here. Because nobody is without sin, as you say, we all get a pass for our bad actions? Just go to confession and say a few mea culpa? Where does hell come into play then?

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #162

Convenient excuse, isn't it?

Not an excuse, it is the explanation that you ask for.

Where does hell come into play then?

Hell is real and is for those who commit blasphemy and don't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.
That is why scriptures parable says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for men to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don't mean you personally as that is only a personal choice you can make for yourself.
It's so simple yet the unbelievers make it so hard with their the denial Satan has instilled in them with worldly goods and desires.

The biggest lie ever told by Satan is "he who dies with the most wins".
It's by the grace of God you get saved and nothing more.
SO easy to have FAITH and believe in Jesus Christ in return for eternal salvation.
If I am wrong I lose nothing, if you are wrong...........well eternity is a very long time.
Seems I have planted the seed in you and Atch is watering it.
I do pray that your heart softens and you accept the grace that God is offering you.

Chemikiem
20 May 2018  #163

We are all hypocrites Pam,

Maybe so, but I am not professing to be a Christian and writing posts full of hatred on this site.
Would Jesus have had your attitude toward Muslims for example? Same with Polonius and his attitude toward gays, single parents etc, and of course we have Dirk too who wants Poland to stay lovely and white, makes no secret of his hatred for Muslims and Jews, and still says he has Christian beliefs. WTF? Seriously. How do all of you square the sh1te that you write with being Christian? Please educate me because from where I'm sat, you're all a bunch of lying hypocrites. Eternal salvation? Don't make me laugh.

Ziemowit
20 May 2018  #164

of course we have Dirk too who wants Poland to stay lovely and white, makes no secret of his hatred for Muslims and Jews, and still says he has Christian beliefs.

I'm sure Jesus would love Dirk, but I'm not sure Dirk would love Jesus if he met Him face to face. In fact I am pretty sure Dirk would rather not.

Pam, as a Pole living in Poland and not in the US as Dirk, I may tell you that the majority of the Polish people in Poland are against any mass immigration of Muslims or any other large ethnic group to Poland. But we don't associate it to any hatred for Muslims. Of course, there are morons here in Poland, too, who hate Muslims, but most of us think that Muslims should stay where they presently are and we do not feel any need to be culturally enriched by a sudden influx of foreigners of a very different ethnicity. We did not have any colonial past in which we could get to know these people more closely as the Uk or France or the Netherlands. If the Germans, for example, feel that way, it's up to them, but if the Poles do not feel it, Brussels has no right whatever to be directing part of that influx to Poland.

If individual Muslims come to Poland for various reasons, that's a totally different matter. I think the majority of Poles simply accept this fact.

TheWizard
20 May 2018  #165

'Hell is real'

Haaaa haaa haaaa

Chemikiem
20 May 2018  #166

But we don't associate it to any hatred for Muslims.

I'm not saying that Muslims are generally hated by Poles, Ziemowit, and of course I can also understand the reluctance to accept large numbers into Poland, but I am not talking about Poles in general. I am talking specifically about the bunch of " Christians " on PF, who write hateful and inflammatory posts, not only about Muslims, yet bang on about their Christian beliefs.Their hypocrisy is staggering and sticks in my throat. You must be blind if you have missed this.

Ziemowit
20 May 2018  #167

Well, Dirk is a very peculiar type as you know. You never know what make people putting their beliefs so up-front and create such a big issue of their religion. Maybe the more they don't believe in Christian values, the more they feel the need to declare they do because they think those values perfectly match their private ideology.

Personally, I think Dirk has not been seen in a church for many many years, so I would not assign any importance to what he says on Christianity.

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #168

Maybe so, but I am not writing posts full of hatred on this site.

Pam your last two posts are full of hate.
If you ask me you are full of hate and that is why when you claim to be a sinless agnostic and you decide it is your duty to come to a religious thread to post your hateful ilk about Christians to see how many of your personal BAITING digs you can get in before the Mods decide to close this thread just because it sticks in your throat annoying Satan to no end.

Is that your real mission here, to get this thread closed ?
As I said, we are all hypocrites.
Now that you have judged the Christians sins lets discuss your sins Pam.
There is a verse in the Bible for your hypocrisy Pam, "judge not or you will be judged'.
Sin is sin so is your sin bigger than my sin ?
My name is Johnny not Jesus Christ so yes I sin, we all sin every day and that includes YOU Pam as sinless as you pretend to be.

Dirk and I hate Muslims and you hate Christians........who is the biggest sinner, you or us ?

Their hypocrisy is staggering and sticks in my throat.

I don't care to entertain what sticks in your throat.
Makes no difference to me at all as we have already determined years ago that I am not your cup of tea.
Now be nice while I am at church this morning praying that your hateful judgmental heart will soften towards us Christians.

delphiandomine
20 May 2018  #169

I hate Muslims

With an attitude like that towards your neighbours, the only place that awaits you is hell.

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #170

How judgmental and hateful delphiamarino.
I was just using that as an analogy but I see it went over your head.
I guess I should have said to Pam that she hates Christians and I hate Atheists.
Is that better for you this morning or do you still want to sensationalize to ABUSE & BAIT me with such a hateful thing to say.

Only Jesus Christ Himself will decide who and who does not go to hell come Judgment Day.
See you there delph.

delphiandomine
20 May 2018  #171

delphiamarino

Hahaha. I'm amused you kept discussing with "Marino" for so long, even when everyone else figured it out. LOL!

I hate Atheists.

So much hatred.

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #172

even when everyone else figured it out

Oh we figured it out all right delphiamarino.

Dirk diggler
20 May 2018  #173

@Chemikiem
I don't hate jews I hate zionists. For your info im dating a jewish girl. And yes, I want poland to stay white and christian. It's my motherland - the only one I have. In the same way jews want israel to remain israeli And jewish I want poland to remain polish And Catholic. But that's okay for Israel though right but not Poland?? Like Israel, Korea, Japan, etc Poland is to be for polish people first and foremost - not foreign migrants.

And 3/4 of Poles want poland to stay that way too according to CBOS. Why is it that only european countries are forced to become multicultural? No ones telling Korea or Japan or Kuwait to take in millions of turd world migrants. Poland doesnt want them and the majority of Poles dont either. That is the wish of the majority of Polish society. People who contribute, pay taxes, etc are welcome but I'm not going to keep a smile on my face when my country who my ancestors fought and died for is just handed over to some turd worldwrs who don't want to work, dont want to assimilate and then tell the native people.that the crosses on churches offends them. Not to mention all the terror attacks, rapes, and violence. If germaby france sweden and uk want that fine - but the vast majority of polish people do not.

@Ziemowit
For your info I do go to church and bahai temple sparingly. Organized religion isnt really for me though. And I dont hate muslims for being muslims - I hate radical muslims that kill innocent people, more often than not other muslims, and come to europe to rape, pillage, and live off taxpayers.

Every time You hear some migrant or msm outlet spewing some sob story on how they 'left their home for a better future' It's almost always a young man leaving a turd world country to leech off the accomplishments of a superior western civilization. You dont have loads of europeans coming to africa or Asia or middle east to leech off their taxpayers, rape their women, and march down the streets demanding that the natives conform to them. That **** might fly in the cucked countries of western Europe but Poles, hungarians, and other slavic countries are not interested in that nonsense. And even Italy and austrias voters are now saying enough is enough.

delphiandomine
20 May 2018  #174

Oh we figured it out all right delphiamarino.

So why did you spend so much time on him? Was it the fact that as a "Christian", your religion mandates you to look at naked Greek men as works of art?

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #175

Because I knew it was you and wanted to smoke you out but kaprys beat me to it.
We still could contact him in London and ask him if he posted here with his pictures and when he says no he could contact the Admin. to get the IP: # you used and trace it back to file a lawsuit against you for copyright infringements.

A sick mind as yours is a terrible thing to own and manage so you handle your own problems and don't be using my name with yours.

Chemikiem
20 May 2018  #176

post your hateful ilk about Christians

I think you are confusing hatred with contempt. I hold no hatred toward Christians but I do have nothing but contempt for people like you and the others I have mentioned who constantly bang on about their Christian beliefs, yet by the hateful things that they post show that they are anything but Christian.

You can call it baiting if you want, but you are posting on a religious discussion thread, make no secret of the fact that you profess to be a Christian, and yet you pollute the forum with your hateful and inflammatory posts. Sorry, but you've opened the door to be called out on your bullsh1t. I would have responded to Dirk's post below but he appears to have missed the point I was making so keen is he to start banging on about 'turd worlders' again.

Strange that neither of you would directly answer my question though:

How do all of you square the sh1te that you write with being Christian?


delphiandomine
20 May 2018  #177

ask him if he posted here with his pictures

You live in a very strange world, don't you? I mean, contacting some Greek guy known for his naked photos online...how do you reconcile that with your "faith"?

Still, hilarious that you spent weeks obsessing over who it might have been. Try harder next time, maybe it won't take you so long LOL!

Chemikiem
20 May 2018  #178

Maybe the more they don't believe in Christian values, the more they feel the need to declare they do because they think those values perfectly match their private ideology.

You might well be onto something there.

Paulina
20 May 2018  #179

Quite clearly they do not follow the teachings of Christ but relish in taking the moral high ground. Oh the hypocrisy!

Don't worry, Pam, other Christians see it too. We call such people "the Pharisees". I suspect there's a special place in hell for them (if they don't correct their ways), as bringing shame to God's name the way they do probably isn't taken kindly in heaven, I imagine. It's the same with PiS in Poland, I'm afraid. It is revolting and it does make me sick, you have no idea...

And I agree with Ziemowit - I doubt Dirk and johnny would see eye to eye with Jesus...

As a Christian I probably should reprimand johnny to help and save his soul from eternal damnation and if this doesn't work I should find another Christian and reprimand him together and if that doesn't work we should find a third one, etc. as it is advised by Jesus in the Gospels, but I honestly don't know how to get to him (and I probably lack the patience)...

In case of Dirk - he admitted hismelf that he isn't religious, as far as I remember.

Hahaha. I'm amused you kept discussing with "Marino" for so long, even when everyone else figured it out. LOL!

Shouldn't you be suspended for using other username and trolling then?

johnny reb
20 May 2018  #180

Sorry, but you've opened the door to be called out on your bullsh1t.

Oh lord another meltdown from Pam. Pffffft !
No Pam you have opened the door to your MONTHLY whining.
Problem is when I kick you in the ass I get a warning because you go crying to Arts while you are allowed to post your judgmental bull ****.

Now take a deep breath, pull down on your ear lobes and exhale slowly. lmao
All better now ?


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Off-Topic / Religion discussion - muslims, jews, buddhist, and christianstop