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Religion discussion - muslims, jews, buddhist, and christians



Dirk diggler
7 May 2018  #121

@TheWizard

I have to agree. Organized religion is BS - especially RC now. Honestly I kind of lost faith in the RC church as an organization after JP II passed. To me it's never really been the same and it doesn't even have to do with that he was a Pole. He was just so unique like even when you saw him in person he had this strange aura that just like oozed peace and tranquility. It's almost indescribable but you could like feel it from hundreds of feet away. There's a big difference between being religious and being spiritual. I find that the very religious people are oftentimes some of the most cooky. Spirituality is quite different. Of course I honor the traditions, go church here and there, go to confession when I do something really bad - more out of respect for what I was brought up with and my ancestors, but the dogmas don't make any difference to me. I think that a lot of Poles are going in this direction too where they identify maybe as like Roman Catholics because that's what they were brought in but they don't stick to the dogmas blindly like previous generations. Nonetheless, if some people started ******* with the church I was baptized in or asking that crosses are removed because it offends them, there's going to be problems. But even for a while like when I lived in Florida the local church pastor always seemed to squeeze in some political thing against abortion. idk it just seemed inappropriate to me especially since he did it all the tim

I've actually been getting into Bahai more idk it just seems to agree with more on a spiritual level than roman Catholicism. Hopefully the Bahai can soon move out of Haifa where they are being persecuted by the Haredi Jews... sigh, what's new....

johnny reb
7 May 2018  #122

Organized religion is BS

A lot of people need organized religion Dirk.
They sit in the front row at church, throw in their $50 bill for the week and feel secure that their fire insurance is paid up.

go to confession when I do something really bad - more out of respect for what I was brought up with

So you go tell some mortal man in a dress your sin and that means you are good to go ?
No organized religion is perfect because man is not perfect.
Organized religions are to guide people by faith.
Hence those you call religious are walking by faith. (Spiritual laws)
The others are walking by site. (Mans laws)
Guess who wins in the end.

Lyzko
7 May 2018  #123

I'm more for DISorganized religion, myself! To quote the late Tom Lehrer... "Everybody say his own kyrie eleison...." and call it a day.
:-)

Dirk diggler
7 May 2018  #124

A lot of people need organized religion Dirk.

Yeah I agree. Personally, I don't like someone dictating what my relationship with God and what my spirituality should be. But for some people that's what they want and desire - that's their choice. And thank goodness in the US we have that freedom to choose our religion and practice it as we want.

The reason why I say that organized religion is BS (again just my opinion - doesn't mean I'm trying to convince others to think the same way or drop their religion or stop going to church or temple or whatever) is because of how politicized it has become. It just seems to me it's gone so far away from its original mission and purpose in recent years. Of course not all churches and not all religious leaders are like that, but a lot of them are BS. In fact, I'd say its harder to find a good, honest priest that lives a pious life than a one who doesn't. You have all these priests living in mansions and driving luxury cars funded by donation money, you have lots of priests that are into drugs and aren't celibate, you have lots of rabbis esp in the orthodox community that commit child abuse and even a few that were caught up in organ smuggling

So you go tell some mortal man in a dress your sin and that means you are good to go ?

It doesn't mean I'm 'good to go.' Sometimes I just feel bad for something that I did and I sure as hell am not going to tell the cops.... I don't even really follow the official format when I go to confession - it's more of just a conversation. Sometimes you need to get something off your chest and you feel a huge weight lifted after you get it out and at least I know with a priest it's anonymous and he won't go snitching

Organized religions are to guide people by faith.

Yes, that is their primary purpose and intent. However, it just seems like more and more religion is being used for political reasons, as a tax free financial scheme, etc. Especially the more organized, bureaucratic religions. I'm not saying they're all bad - but they're certainly not all good. Every religion has a lot of issues and most of them stem from going beyond it's original purpose to guide people, to enlighten people, to do good deeds and encourage others to do the same, etc.

One of the reasons why I got into Bahai' is because it takes bits from every religion and there isn't much official structure. It's about your own spirituality. I borrow a little froom every religion. I identify as a Christian (mainly because it's what I was brought up in) but yet I also believe in karma from Hinduism and performing a daily mitzvah from Judaism.

TheWizard
8 May 2018  #125

Johnny. Men wins every time the fake god loses every time. The jewish god didn't save them last time and it won't next time, armaments may. The god of islam is not saving the millions of arabs now. The christian god didn't save poland, men did. Just all rubbish. People save themselves and those who wait for some god perish, they are the first to go. How about tibetan monks? Lol there are countless examples of idiots waiting for their made up god to help, they are easy pickings for the more intelligent.

Lyzko
8 May 2018  #126

G_d nonetheless exists! Some call it G_d, others Jaweh, Allah etc.

A higher moral structure is necessary as an overarching principle against which the behavior of developed beings is measured. The arrogance of believing that Man is perfect and the highest being above which nothing else is, had led to Nazism, in which Man was seen as the sole being and thus some men allowed themselves to believe that they were superior over the lives of their victims.

This is dangerous ideology which destroys the concept of a universe in which ideals such as freedom and justice must be constantly and vigilantly defended!!

Without this, anybody could and would do whatever they wish to anybody them wish without the necessary fear of reprisals.

TheWizard
8 May 2018  #127

People are doing what they want. They have money and religion is helping them to control the masses. It's all about control. Invading other countries, trashing the planet to unrecoverable levels which will kill millions more and so on. I don't see any god doing squat about it, the one true god is money and it is a cold uncaring god.

Lyzko
9 May 2018  #128

G_D's existence was also questioned after the Shoah! And people of faith still believe. Perhaps because of His presence, this planet continues to thrive.

TheOther
9 May 2018  #129

No offense, but I wouldn't call over population, mass extinction of species, destruction of the environment, changing climate, and constant wars with millions upon millions of victims "a thriving planet".

Lyzko
9 May 2018  #130

'Could also be a lot worse, couldn't it? We're still here and can still reverse Global Warming, as soon as Trump & Co. finally admit it exists!!

johnny reb
9 May 2018  #131

Johnny. Men wins every time the fake god loses every time.

That is very typical for an Unbeliever to say.
And that is the difference between you and me, I AM a Believer and walk by Faith while you are an Unbeliever and walk by site.

So to say the least I am not surprised by your opinion.
I believe in eternal salvation and eternity is for a long time.
If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, I am covered either way, however, if you are wrong about God, well lets say that I wouldn't want to be you.

God gave us a free will to make choices and only you can make those choices, nobody can't make them for you.

TheOther
9 May 2018  #132

Could also be a lot worse, couldn't it?

Well, could also be a lot better, n'est-ce pas? :)

TheWizard
10 May 2018  #133

Well nothing new here just the same old.

johnny reb
10 May 2018  #134

Nope, nothing new as those words were written in stone and haven't changed in thousands of years.
We still welcome ignorant atheist in this thread no matter how insultive and abusive they get towards God and religions.
That tells us that we are p-ing Satan off big time with our posts here. ;-)

TheOther
10 May 2018  #135

Which god(dess) are we talking about? So many to choose from...

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Lyzko
10 May 2018  #136

G_d is the Good Shepherd who looks after His little sparrows. On the other hand, He does often see
fit to test his creations by putting roadblocks in their path to see how they will overcome these obstacles.

TheOther
10 May 2018  #137

Explain to me please how you as a Jew can still believe in a god after what happened during the Holocaust.

dolnoslask
10 May 2018  #138

Possibly like my mother and father as they explained to me that it was only faith that they had to cling on to in the camps and that gave them strength and hope Maybe this is a very important thread that Catholics and Jews have to share , some Jews survived the death camps , some Catholics survived the Gulags, from my mother and fathers prospective their faith did help them, their story helped me keep an open mind, as a young teenager that had turned his back on religion and faith.

Lyzko
10 May 2018  #139

Because as Elie Wiese has so often said, G_d is Man's overseer on Earth. He/It is not responsible for Man's excesses, but exists to show Man the way.

G_d proposes, Man disposes.

That's why I believe in G_d!

TheOther
10 May 2018  #140

Guess I opened a can of worms. I did some reading and came across a few interesting sites:

catholicstand.com/god-and-the-holocaust/
quora/Why-would-God-let-the-Holocaust-happen-I-am-a-muslim-I-am-confused-as-to-why-Allah-would-let-millions-of-innocent-people-die
huffingtonpost/rabbi-alan-lurie/how-could-god-have-allowe_b_1207672.html
thejc/news/uk-news/wiesel-yes-we-really-did-put-god-on-trial-1.5056

dolnoslask
10 May 2018  #141

Guess I opened a can of worms

Not really its only a matter of individual prospective, some believe in god some don't, down to individual choice.

Atch
11 May 2018  #142

Guess I opened a can of worms.

Funny, my first reaction was exactly the same as Dolno 'not really' - must be our Catholic outlook :))

The thing is that if you're brought up in the Catholic or Anglican faith and you're fortunate enough to have good quality religious education (note education, not instruction, there's a difference) both in your home and at school, you are encouraged to reflect on the mysteries of life and on human suffering. So it's a question that comes up repeatedly throughout your life. Catholics vary in their views on the subject and we all reach our own conclusion which is generally something we keep private.

Though some people contend that the evil in the world which causes such misery is entirely man made and God can't be blamed, that doesn't explain why a four year old child gets terminal cancer or a heatlhy young man is paralysed from the neck down in a rugby accident. One theory is that when a person is chosen by God for some terrible ordeal or horrible death, they are being honoured and elevated by sharing in the suffering of Jesus. I remember once in the staff room in school, I was having breakfast with another teacher who was probably the only really devout Catholic on the staff and we were discussing the Holocaust. She said that she had been talking to a priest about it recently and that he had said to her 'ah but if you could see the way in which they were received in Paradise, they who had shared in the Passion of Christ' and then her eyes filled with tears and I felt it might be rather insensitive to continue munching cornflakes and toast - all things spiritual should be banned as breakfast table conversation!

But basically, the suffering of the Jews up to and then including their deaths in the camps can be seen to equate to the final twelve hours of the life of Christ. Similarly a long illness and death can be seen in the same way. And the people who suffer thus are seen as being very close to God during that time in a way that the rest of us are not. I have another example where a girl in college was talking about when her father was dying and she was sitting by his bedside and how privileged she felt because in her words 'when you're in the presence of death, you're in the presence of God' and we all nodded our heads silently because we understood.

The other thing that we as Catholics tend to focus on, is the stories of the camps that demonstrate the presence of God, His light shining through the darkest times, the acts of kindness, of sacrifice, of courage and goodness. The lesson is that no matter how overwhelming the evil, that it will never win. God will overcome. We then might go on to discuss how much power God actually has to influence events. Is He struggling against the force of the Devil,is that why things such as the Gulags or the Holocaust happen? If so, then more than ever, we need to believe as we are His infantry. Maybe He needs us as much as we need Him, is it a symbiotic relationship..........and so on, and so on. One is never done discussing the possibilities, theories etc.

dolnoslask
11 May 2018  #143

Wow Atch that post is a masterpiece, perfectly explains the relationship between god and those of faith.

johnny reb
11 May 2018  #144

Very much of a Masterpiece Atch.
Well thought out and very well put from a grounded person of faith.
Trying to explain "Faith" to someone who is not Spirit filled is a tuff one.
Satan is very powerful and does not want to lose the souls of the Unbelievers.
Satan's biggest lie is "He who dies with the most money & material things "wins".
That is why I keep repeating to the Unbelievers that I as a believer walk by Faith while they walk by site.
Jesus gave us all a free will to make choices.
The Unbelievers choice is to follows man's laws, live for worldly goods and worldly desires that are meaningless come time of death.
The Believer choice is to follow Gods laws and puts all their efforts into living by them, which is not an easy task, as it is daily work, so we may inherit the Kingdom of Heaven to share with God Almighty for ETERNITY by Faith and Grace alone.

Just doing good works here on earth DOES NOT get you into heaven.
Does this mean just because you are a Christian that you profess to be perfect...... well of course not because all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

There was only ONE sinless man that has ever walked on the face of this earth and that was Jesus Christ himself !
If we as Christians tried to claim we are perfect then we would be claiming that we are gods ourselves.
Let's not give up on the "Lost Souls" here on the P.F. as we the "Chosen People" have been instructed to do.

dolnoslask
11 May 2018  #145

That starts to set people apart us and them, if people do not want or need any faith in their life then fine, I don't feel chosen at all I kind of fell into religion because of my parents. Atch hit a note with me when she said " good quality religious education (note education, not instruction" I hated and rebelled against instruction by those who considered themselves superior or holier than thou.

TheOther
11 May 2018  #146

Hey Atch. Thanks for your long answer. Very interesting read.

Though some people contend that the evil in the world which causes such misery is entirely man made and God can't be blamed

Yes, that's what I was referring to - theodicy and free will. Although that explanation - some would call it excuse - doesn't really satisfy me to be honest. How could anyone see God as a loving, all powerful and knowing entity when you have to watch your family being herded into the gas chambers? What's going on in a Muslim terrorist who's screaming "God is great" while blowing himself up? Does a Hindu widow really believe that it will "purge her of all her sins, release her from the cycle of birth and rebirth and ensure salvation for her dead husband and the seven generations that followed her" while she's being burned alive? I for one tend to agree with Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not all-powerful.
Is God able to prevent evil, but not willing?
Then God himself is evil.
Is God both able and willing to prevent evil?
Then why is there evil?
Is God neither able nor willing to prevent evil?
Then why call him "God"?


This is of course an individual choice, as both Dolno and you stated correctly.

...we all reach our own conclusion which is generally something we keep private.

May I ask you why you keep it private?

Dirk diggler
11 May 2018  #147

Is God

Well, Christians and most monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islam believe that God gives man free choice. So we can choose what we want to do. And naturally the decisions of one man will undoubtedly affect another man - both good and bad.

What's going on in a Muslim terrorist who's screaming "God is great" while blowing himself up?

Usually that he's about to get 72 virgins. If it were a reality that's actually a pretty good deal, especially if you have a miserable life already.

johnny reb
11 May 2018  #148

May I ask you why you keep it private?

Have you ever heard the term, "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

TheOther
12 May 2018  #149

God gives man free choice

One of the sources I mentioned above states that

"God deliberately does not interfere - not out of indifference, but out of great love. God must "watch" in pain as we commit atrocities, because to interfere would negate free will, terminating the relationship and hence the very purpose of creation."

Sounds like a cheap excuse of a cleric to me. Why would anybody need a god who watches silently (out of "great love") if you kill millions? Strange concept.

Usually that he's about to get 72 virgins. If it were a reality that's actually a pretty good deal

Until you find out that the 72 virgins are all male... :)

Have you ever heard the term...

I didn't ask Atch WHAT she is keeping private, I asked her WHY she's doing it. Big difference.

gregy741
12 May 2018  #150

Why would anybody need a god who watches silently (out of "great love") if you kill millions? Strange concept.

am not that religious but its not illogical concept.
to separate good from bad,one need free will
its like some test...god permit evildoing to find out whos righteous and whos not.how else would he find out?


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Off-Topic / Religion discussion - muslims, jews, buddhist, and christianstop