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Spain to deploy police to prevent Catalonia's Independence Vote


Roger5
1 Oct 2017  #1

Very heavy-handed and totally unneccesary. Madrid could have allowed this poll. What harm is there in it? They could even have encouraged non-separatists to participate, thereby gaining better information on the opinions of a wider demographic (because, let's face it, mostly separatists would have voted today). Tear gas and baton rounds will further alienate Catalans from Madrid.

Dougpol1
1 Oct 2017  #2

**** knows why the Mods moved this important thread about police brutality in the European Union Roger, when this forum is plagued by those two Serbians.

Oh -wait a minute:)) This is an American forum, and I forgot. Americans don't know the meaning of the phrase police brutality. But this is Europe, a supposedly civilised society of equals. My daughter is safely indoors in Barcelona, but if any of that police scum were to mark her somehow and I could identify them........

There should be a UK government warning against travel to Spain. It's not safe with their scum "policing." Hopefully the Catalonians will win the war and the scum from outside the province will be sent packing.

Ironside
1 Oct 2017  #3

knows why the Mods moved this important thread about police brutality in the European Union

Nothing to do with Poland.

Hopefully the Catalonians will win the war and the scum from outside the province will be sent packing.

Just stay off your drink D. You wannabe Che.

posted in random

Dirk diggler
1 Oct 2017  #4

There should be a UK government warning against travel to Spain. It's not safe with their scum "policing."

EU, US, etc aren't supporting this vote. They don't want to see Spain divided. Spain doesn't want to lose its most prosperous region. I could sooner see the Kurds getting a sovereign slice of Iraq sooner than the Catalonians getting their own land.

I'm all for peoples right to self determination and choosing their nations' fate. Although I'd like for the Catalonians to get their own independence, I doubt it will happen. At best, Spain will give them more autonomy but won't let them separate without risk of a war which the Catalonians would lose.

Very heavy-handed and totally unneccesary. Madrid could have allowed this poll. What harm is there in it?

Now you understand how the Crimeans felt when the Ukraine denied their right to a referendum when they wanted to join Russia.

Catalonians will win the war and the scum from outside the province will be sent packing.@ Dougpol1

That's what exactly happened in Crime and East Ukraine. However, Catalonia won't enjoy the same kind of support from a great power. In fact, it appears everyone's against them. Russia may help them through back channels, but only because it weakens the EU.

Roger5
1 Oct 2017  #5

I know a couple of people from Crimea, and they most certainly did not want Russian rule.

Dirk diggler
1 Oct 2017  #6

@Roger5

I'd disagree. Yes there were quite a few that preferred to remain in Ukraine. Nonetheless, the majority of the people identify Russians and they preferred Russian rule. For one, the older people immediately received higher pensions and workers will also now receive higher wages. There's tons of video evidence from non-Russian outlets that described the situation there, especially by Vice which did a series called 'Russian Roulette' that was well over 100 episodes. All in all, I'd say that more locals in Crimea were for Russian rule than against.

Also, the referendum was conducted with international observers present.
fromglobalresearch.ca/crimean-referendum-at-gunpoint-is-a-myth-international-observers/5373767

"It's all quiet so far," Mateus Piskorkski, the leader of the European observers' mission and Polish MP told Itar-Tass. "Our observers have not registered any violations of voting rules."

Another observer, Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament, dispelled the "referendum at gunpoint" myth, by saying he felt people were free to make their choice.

"I haven't seen anything even resembling pressure," he said. "People themselves want to have their say."
Many were impressed by the turnout, which appeared to be so high as to have people stand in lines to get to the ballot box in the morning. The turnout for the referendum in Crimea at 17.00 local time (15.00 GMT) was 70 per cent, the referendum's website said.

"The lines are very long, the turnout is big indeed," a member of the international observer mission, Bulgarian parliament member Pavel Chernev, said. "Organization and procedures are 100 percent in line with the European standards," he added.

135 international observers have arrived from 23 countries, including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia and Poland, Crimean authorities said. Among those monitoring the referendum are members of the EU and national European parliaments, international law experts and human rights activists.

Dougpol1
1 Oct 2017  #7

Just stay off your drink D. You wannabe Che.

Nope. No drink. And 70 percent of Catalonions want a referendum. The law could have been changed to allow them to have one. Instead those filthy Spanish scum in uniform prefer to baton charge their own citizens.

As a Pole, does that ring any bells in the relatively recent history of your mother country Ironside? Martial law. And what did you do then? Hide and cower?

mafketis
1 Oct 2017  #8

The law could have been changed to allow them to have one

It would require a change to the constitution, the one that 95% of Catalonians approved.

Dougpol1
1 Oct 2017  #9

It would require a change to the constitution

PIS seem to have no problem interfering with the constitution for illogical and political purpose. Here we are talking about a referendum which would not be binding in any case, in spite of what the Catalan government might say. So why not just let the Catalans have their say? Both sides are as bad as each other, but there is no excuse in this day and age for police violence.

Though if you've ever been to Spain, one knows how low life the authorities are, and how they have no wish for free speech.

mafketis
1 Oct 2017  #10

Here we are talking about a referendum which would not be binding in any case, in spite of what the Catalan government might say

They've had play referendums before, this time they clearly want to use the resutls to unilaterally declare 'independence' (and their exit from the EU and the Euro though the leadership lies about that part, the say way the pimp for the Scottish referendum did).

So why not just let the Catalans have their say?

Inependence has never passed 50% in anonymous surveys. The suspicion is was that the vote was fixed (there's a video of them taking ballot boxes into the polling station but one drops and ballots pour out of it....)

PIS seem to have no problem i

Since when are they an example to follow?

I know Spanish well enough to read the press (listening is a bit rusty) and have been to Spain a number of times. The real tragedy is that corrupt catalan independistes are destroying the fabric of democracy with their intantile games.

According to the sources I've seen the police did not initiate the violence but were reacting to crowd violence - regrettable but since when are police target practice?

Dirk diggler
1 Oct 2017  #11

Doug, if your daughter was in danger I'm willing to bet you'd be the first one to call the 'low life Spanish authorities' to help her.

Also they're using tear gas and rubber bullets, not live rounds. The methods they're using aren't meant to be lethal and are normal for crowd dispersal. Some of the cops may even side with the Catalonians, nonetheless they're paid to do a specific job and take orders.

Nonetheless, I still do believe they could've accommodated the Catalonians in a referendum.

Dougpol1
1 Oct 2017  #12

rubber bullets, not live rounds. The methods they're using aren't meant to be lethal and are normal for crowd dispersal

The use of rubber bullets for crowd dispersal is illegal in Catalonia Dirk. They're going to have fun with that one.
And no - I wouldn't trust the Spanish police, but would call the Three Amigos:)

PS: You haven't watched the videos have you? The Guardia and Civil police obviously hate the Catalonians. Beating up firefighters? Threatening the local police? LOL

Dirk diggler
1 Oct 2017  #13

Catalonia is nonetheless still part of Spain... I can't find anything that states though that rubber bullets are illegal.. At least they didn't use live rounds like in the Arab world or in Ukraine. Still, their approach was rather heavy handed imo. The Catalonians should've blocked all the major roads into the region for a day to let their vote take place and establish a militia to surround polling spots to prevent occupation forces from entering. A lot of the people who came out to vote where seniors - in the videos I saw it appeared there were even more older people than younger ones. In July though, the Catalonian government said that around 40% didn't want independence with roughly an equal amount who do. I think they just want more autonomy. Either way though, a lot of people regardless of whether they're pro or against independence, still wanted a referendum.

And no - I wouldn't trust the Spanish police, but would call the Three Amigos:)

Good.. never trust any cops. **** them all..

Anyway, I just find it so hypocritical how the EU talks all this nonsense about democracy, standing up for people, etc. yet they're clearly against the Catalonian referendum. Total hypocrites.

Dougpol1
1 Oct 2017  #14

All of your post is pertinent Dirk. It's all bad. As to the seniors thing, the daughter's b/f and all his peers voted, and didn't see any cops in the villages, but it's all over now anyway.

A land divided, just as Thatcher did to Britain. Well done Madrid! And as you say, another nail in the coffin for the hopelessly inept and conservative EU, which I still supported until today.

According to the sources I've seen the police did not initiate the violence but were reacting to crowd violence - regrettable but since when are police target practice?

Of course some youths threw missiles and the rest in retribution. Can you imagine what British youth would have done in the same circumstances of such brutality and organised attack? Some of those riot police would have been butchered. The restraint when police attacked peaceful voters was admirable. The camera doesn't lie and there is no excuse for the scenes. The rest of Spain will undoubtedly pay the penalty for today I fear, at least in Catalonia, if nowhere else.

Ironside
1 Oct 2017  #15

And what did you do then? Hide and cower?

Is that your bite? Try dentures next time. What have you been doing in Soviet Poland? Claim a political refugee status? Have you escaped from asylum ?

The law could have been changed to allow them to have one.

Maybe it should but it is not changed and this refredum is not legal either. They should have made damn well sure that they are acting legally before taking on something so flamable like via for independence.

The EU keep away from Spain's internal affairs. They should apply the same attitude towards Poland.

Roger5
2 Oct 2017  #16

DD, yes, anyone can cherry pick Bulgarian MPs who praised the Russian election in Crimea. I could also quote the UN and several countries, including your own, that condemned it. But let's face it. As with the forest cutting, you'd rather select your quotes from Google and churn out long boring posts that almost never acknowledge that there are at least two sides to every issue.

WielkiPolak
2 Oct 2017  #17

I'm with Roger on this.

Even if the Spanish government sees this an unconstitutional, they should have just allowed the people of Catalonia, many of whom obviously feel strongly about this, to vote. a referendum is basically hearing out people's opinions. You can't stop them doing that.

The Spanish government could always then have ignored it. It wouldn't be the first time a referendum was ignored/not acted on.

Seriously, the government sending in police who pull people's hair, kick them and throw women down flights of stairs, is a bit far, no?

youtu.be/6kMKTWD9sHY

mafketis
2 Oct 2017  #18

a referendum is basically hearing out people's opinions

You're buying the Catalan party line. they've had fantasy referendums before and no one cared. This time they clearly intend/ed to use the vote to unilaterally declare independence (that is they see/saw the results as legally binding). That is a very different kettle of fish.

It's completely against the constitution (as approved by Catalonia) and if it succeeds it's the effective end of rule of law in Spain after just short of 40 years. Russia is very supportive of the referendum (because they see it as also validating the pseudo referendum in Crimea).

WielkiPolak
2 Oct 2017  #19

I'm not buying in to anything mafketis. I am not taking any side, but I think the Spanish government have handled this badly.

Images and videos of people in Catalonia being beaten by police have gone out in to the world and it doesn't look good. What are they going to do? Send out police to attack residents every time there is a referendum vote? Just keep beating it in to their skulls that they can't be independent?

Ziemowit
2 Oct 2017  #20

Why is it that the British government agrees for the Scottish referendum on independence, but the Spanish government doesn't agree for a Catalonian one?

Also, the Czechs and the Slovaks have been able to split peacefully, but the Yougoslavs have not.

It seems to me there exist a mental division between the North and the South of Europe.

Would Poland be able to split peacefully one day?

Roger5
2 Oct 2017  #21

they've had fantasy referendums before and no one cared.

And Madrid should have ignored this one, too.

This time they clearly intend/ed to use the vote to unilaterally declare independence

And that would have been the time for Madrid to step in and uphold the constitution. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have known several Catalans who felt very strongly about the issue ("We are not Spanish, we are Catalans," that sort of thing). Breaking women's fingers and throwing old people down concrete stairs is despicable.

Dirk diggler
2 Oct 2017  #22

@Roger5

Except it wasnt just a couple Bulgarians. If you opened the link you'd see thr observers came from countries that are traditionally against or neutral towards russia such as Poland, Latvia, Italy, etc. Yes several countries condemned the referendum absolutely. That is an entirely different issue than the fact the referendum took place with international observers who universally stated they didnt see any inconsistencies and the referendum was in line with European standards. Nonetheless the referendum was generally condemned as illegal spurred on by one sided reports that people were harasses to vote. In other words, nothing new..

As we've seen time and time again, Europe, us and the rest of the world whether it's with Kosovo, Crimea, sudan, yemen, and now Catalonia governments will support or condemn referendums depending on what their foreign policy deems strategic, regardless if citizens considered the referendum valid.

What surprised me is though is how no government is supporting the catalonians although Im willing to bet russia will or has supported them through back channels.

Just another proof on how hypocritical the EU is - they only intervene in certain EU situations if it suits them

Dirk diggler
2 Oct 2017  #23

Couple of articles I found regarding Catalonia I thought I'd share:

Threats to trigger an article that would impose 'direct rule' (more heavy handedness, decreased autonomy) for regions that threaten Spain - so far it's just one guy from the opposition party calling for this but nonetheless many of the parties appear to be one the same page as declaring the referendum illegal

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalan-referendum-spanish-government-direct-rule-catalonia-independence-police-violence-vote-a7978291.html

Catalonia begs EU to intervene and mediate - somehow I doubt that the EU will though, as again it appears the EU picks and chooses when to intervene and when not to. In general, the eurocrats were against the referendum and any calls for Catalonian independence

theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/02/catalan-government-emergency-meeting-spain-independence

Mixed messages - president of Catalonian region says that they don't want a 'traumatic split' from Spain, and that 'he said he wanted a new understanding with the central government in Madrid,' most officials claim that majority of voters want secession, etc...

bbc.com/news/world-europe-41472985

Various outlets claim that Catalonian voters overwhelmingly voted for independence - most cite '90%'

40 trade unions and Catalan associations called a region-wide strike on Tuesday due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms".

Good for them. Hit 'em where it hurts. Spains not going to get let it's golden goose run away that easy though. Could a sort of civil war or at least minor armed conflict be in the work? Gun ownership is rather low in Spain so it may be difficult for Catalonians to project their wishes for independence and enforce their position at first. Then again, we've seen illegal weapon markets (among others) pop up almost immediately whenever a conflict occurs. Either way, I predict Russia will help Catalonia through back channels. Russia has generally supported modern separatist causes as it causes destabilization.

mafketis
2 Oct 2017  #24

Spains not going to get let it's golden goose run away that easy though

Catalonia is not a "golden goose". It has the highest debt of any province and the least transparent government.

Russia has generally supported modern separatist causes as it causes destabilization.

The fact that Russia is suddenly Catalonia's bestie should make thinking people think that there's something rotten going on (there always is with Russia).

I know Putin gives you a hard 0n but destablization is not going to help anybody. Instead it's 45 years of relative stability and rule of law flushed down the separatist and russian toilet.

Dirk diggler
2 Oct 2017  #25

Catalonia is not a "golden goose".

Spain has always had issues with debt, credit ratings, unemployment, etc. Nonetheless, Catalonia is by far the most economically wealthy region of Spain in terms of nominal GDP - the total dollar amount that the goods and services in an area. In this case, the that dollar figure is higher for Catalonia than any other part of Spain. Not to mention the importance of Barcelona as a city.

I know Putin gives you a hard 0n

Oh you know it. I'm totally obsessed with bald seniors of my gender.. Too bad gay marriage is illegal in Russia otherwise I'd totally propose to Putin.

The fact that Russia is suddenly Catalonia's bestie should make thinking people think that there's something rotten going on (there always is with Russia).

Like I said above, Russia only supports seperatists (including Texas secessionists) because of the general destabilization it causes. It's not because Russia cares about secessionist causes (unless it involves a territory seceding and wishing to join Russia - then every branch of Russian government and the state becomes involved) but more so the damage it causes to their opponents.

Crnogorac3
3 Oct 2017  #26

I know Putin gives you a hard 0n

Considering how often you mention him in your posts, you seem to be the one who has a serious man crush on Putin.
Don't be ashamed to admit it.

youtube.com/watch?v=zk_VszbZa_s

He is the best leader on the world stage today, however much maligned. People envy him. He will not go down. His praises willl be sung by Russian maiden for centuries to come.

Glory to to the great leader!

Dirk diggler
3 Oct 2017  #27

@Crnogorac3

Its BC he has balls and isn't scared to promote a greater Russia policy. Poland and Russia have bad blood and they're def enemies. Nonetheless, gotta give credit where it's due.. Putin has transformed Russia since he took over from Yeltsin

peterweg
3 Oct 2017  #28

Putin has transformed Russia since he took over from Yeltsin

Western technology that vastly increased oil production has transformed Russia

Dirk diggler
3 Oct 2017  #29

@peterweg

He put himself at the right place, right time, and acted in the right way. The result being exponentially higher wages, GDP, influence, etc. Venezuela has larger oil reserves than Saudi Arabia and Russia yet look how the socialists ran it totally into the ground. The government just recently had to give out bunnies for people to cook but the citizens found them too cute and couldn't bring themselves to kill them and kept them as pets.

If it wasn't for oil technology, Saudi Arabians and Libyans would still be living in tents. If it wasn't for modern banking, Emirates would still be living in huts diving for pearls. You could say if it wasn' for x, y wouldn't happen to just about any country, any time, any situation.

mafketis
4 Oct 2017  #30

Images and videos of people in Catalonia being beaten by police have gone out in to the world and it doesn't look good.

Well it's now coming out that most of those pictures are fake. They were from anti-austerity and other protests and have been recycled by the independistes.

And the real figure of people taken to the hospital is under 10.

Can you imagine what British youth would have done in the same circumstances of such brutality and organised attack?

You mean the violent brutal attacks that didn't exist? Homey.... you've been played.

heraldo.es/noticias/sociedad/2017/10/02/cuidado-esta-foto-bulo-1199772-310.html#com


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