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Spain to deploy police to prevent Catalonia's Independence Vote


Roger5
4 Oct 2017  #31

Was the tv news footage I saw of cops throwing women downstairs fake?

WielkiPolak
4 Oct 2017  #32

Well it's now coming out that most of those pictures are fake. They were from anti-austerity and other protests and have been recycled by the independistes.

huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/catalonia-spain-alfonso-dastis_uk_59d11d88e4b06791bb113489

An article talking about what you are referring to, but while some of the pictures being circulated online are from previous events, there were reporters on the ground who witnessed the violence live.

Unless you think it was fake violence, staged by fake police and locals pretending to be hurt?

Dougpol1
4 Oct 2017  #33

You mean the violent brutal attacks that didn't exist?

That's fine, if you have an agenda. So Amnesty International is ill-informed, I take it? And the woman with the broken fingers was auditioning for the role of the Catalan Elizabeth Taylor? Brilliant acting. You're right - she had me totally fooled.

mafketis
5 Oct 2017  #34

That's fine, if you have an agenda.

My agenda is the rule of law. There was some police violence but not nearly anywhere on the scale initially reported. And the use of fake photos by the independistes is well documented now.

Democracy and rule of law is still very fragile in Spain, holding the referendum in violation of a constitution that was legally and willingly accepted could only expose that weakness which will come out, among other ways, by police violence. The referendum can only be supported by those with an interest in weakening the rule of law and democracy, like Russia...... and you?

Roger5
5 Oct 2017  #35

A bit of lateral thinking is needed from Madrid here. UDI will result in bloodshed and a further fracturing of an unstable situation. It seems that the views of Catalans are finely balanced, and many of the separatists would be satisfied by more autonomy, leaving hardliners exposed. The constitution must be upheld, but politics is the art of compromise, and Madrid playing hardball is not going to end well.

The fact that fake pictures were used does not justify the many authenticated cases of police brutality.

mafketis
5 Oct 2017  #36

many of the separatists would be satisfied by more autonomy, leaving hardliners exposed

There's not much autonomy left to be given, the only things left are the things that can't (by definition) be ceded by the Central Government, defense, border controls things like that. They're unhappy financially partly because the local government burns through their local taxes (highest rates in Spain) and then blames Madrid when the well runs dry.

Almost the best solution would be to let them declare independence and when the situation goes t1ts up (establishing a military and border controls with a new currency after they're kicked out of the Euro and no help from the EU and their own sovreign debt will put them in Greece territory very quickly) 'allow' them back into Spain with greatly reduced autonomy.

Roger5
5 Oct 2017  #37

let them declare independence

Which would be failing to uphold the constitution. Not an option. What a fustercluck.

Ziemowit
5 Oct 2017  #38

Let them change the constitution which would allow for independence first, then let them hold a decent referendum on independence and see what the result of that referendum is.

If the UK would have accepted Scotland becoming independent in a civilised way, why not Spain could not follow with Catalonia?

If the EU can accept the Brexit, why shouldn't Spain accept a Catalonian exit?

mafketis
5 Oct 2017  #39

Which would be failing to uphold the constitution. Not an option. What a fustercluck

Yes, that's why I wrote 'almost'. And it is a royal goat rodeo all for the sake of crooked, xenophobic nationalists (the catalan independistes)

Let them change the constitution

If they were working to change the constitution then I still wouldn't agree with them but I wouldn't despise them as much as I do now with their extra-legal approach.

why shouldn't Spain accept a Catalonian exit?

It's the 'how' that matters, see above.

Ironside
5 Oct 2017  #40

This dude in chrage of Catlonia should be hanged. He is a shady dude.

jgrabner
5 Oct 2017  #41

their own sovreign debt will put them in Greece territory very quickly

according to this FT piece, their current debt is 35% in relation to GDP: ft.com/content/62118282-a35a-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2 even if they double it, it would be well in safe territory. And with their own currency, they wouldn't need to worry at all. Being forced out of the Euro would actually the best thing that could happen to them (and to all others too).

Just from a pure economics perspective, this region would have more of a chance of becoming a 2nd Switzerland in Europe than even Switzerland itself, considering their favorable geographic location on the EU border with its own sea ports. In particular in the current climate where a ton of investors is looking for places to invest with yields a bit higher than the 0+x they can get from Euro bonds: macromon.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/ms-wantabe-can-stand-many-things-but-not-zero-percent

of course, this will not happen because nobody in the local government has thought this through to the end.

Dougpol1
5 Oct 2017  #42

Let them change the constitution which would allow for independence first, then let them hold a decent referendum on independence and see what the result of that referendum is.

"Dougpol in 'Totally agrees with Ziemowit' shock." Read all about it! Simple solution. But Spain will always be a dictatorship.
I am amazed that anybody but hypocritical politicians and those in Madrid and the sierras could support the actions of the Spanish police in some of those attacks on law-abiding citizens. In a normal country aka Britain, there would be arrests, and the huge majority of those would be the crims in uniform facing the sack, and even incarceration. You couldn't make it up, and certainly nowhere in Spain but Barcelona will be seeing any of the Dougpol pesetas.

Dirk diggler
5 Oct 2017  #43

I am amazed that anybody but hypocritical politicians and those in Madrid and the sierras could support the actions of the Spanish police in some of those attacks on law-abiding citizens

You shouldn't be amazed by this. The EU would probably still support the Madrid government even if they used live rounds, after maybe a bit of finger wagging in the worst case. Money, power, and control is the name of the game. They don't want a rogue separatist territory with such a large economy to suddenly sprout up between Spain and France. Not to mention the devastating impact it would have to the Spanish economy should Catalonia in fact secede.

Nonetheless, if the vast majority of Catalonians desire greater autonomy or total independence, Im 100% behind them as I believe in peoples' right to self determination.

peterweg
5 Oct 2017  #44

Nonetheless, if the vast majority of Catalonians desire greater autonomy or total independence, Im 100% behind them as I believe in peoples' right to self determination.

Only 40 % support independence. What about the 60% of the population who want to stay part of Spain?

Dirk diggler
5 Oct 2017  #45

@peterweg

You missed the key word 'IF'

We won't know until a formal vote is held without cops interfering.

IF in fact the majority doesn't want to secede that's the route they'll take. Such is the democratic process.

mafketis
6 Oct 2017  #46

could support the actions of the Spanish police in some of those attacks on law-abiding citizens

If they're abetting or participating in an illegal referendum they're not, by definition, 'law-abiding'.

That doesn't mean I support the police violence (I don't) it's just that it's not an argument for independence - the two are completely unrelated.

Like ziemek said, work to change the constitution then hold a real referendum. I suspect that part of the reason they're not doing that is they know they would lose, so they're trying to manipulate public opinion into emotional reactions to derail the rule of law instead. and with some people, it seems to work.

SigSauer
6 Oct 2017  #47

@mafketis
@Dirk diggler

Look, under the Spanish constitution of which Catalan is a signatory to, a referendum on independence requires the voting of ALL states in Spain. This is the same nonsense that the terrorists in Crimea used for their fake, illegal, and illegitimate referendum. Under Ukraine's constitution, a referendum for independence of a single oblast must be voted on by ALL oblasts in the country. Unilateral referendums are illegal in such circumstances. I also oppose this because it plays into the Russian playbook of sewing disunity and chaos across western Europe.

Roger5
6 Oct 2017  #48

Agree. Especially about Crimea.

Dirk diggler
6 Oct 2017  #49

a referendum on independence requires the voting of ALL states in Spain

a referendum for independence of a single oblast must be voted on by ALL oblasts in the country

That I was not aware of. However, I think it would be very very difficult for a referendum to pass for independence in either case if that law/rules were followed. Naturally, all the states/oblasts/provinces/etc that aren't the seccessiont ones would tend to vote 'stay' and the secessionist one (assuming that majority want to secede) would tend to vote 'leave'

Dirk diggler
6 Oct 2017  #50

Also 'terrorist' is relative - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Even with ISIS - many of the local communities in Iraq/Syria welcomed them esp Iraq where they were sick of the Shiite lead government especially under al-maliki. The Armja Krajowa and those in the Warsaw Uprising were considered 'terrorists' by the Nazis and Soviets alike. We think of them as among Poland's most patriotic people (The same people members of the Michnik family had executed). It's the same with Contras v Sandinistas, DPR v Ukraine, etc. I think of the Kurds as heroes and they deserve a homeland - but most Turks would disagree and consider all the Kurds who want territory to be terrorists, not just the PKK.

Actually, members of the Basque separatists waged quite a long campaign of terror and unconventional warfare against Spain (and hid out in France with rumors French authorities were assisting them or at the very least allowing them to establish C&C within French territory). Same with the Corsicans.

Crow
6 Oct 2017  #51

Its just so fascinating how we live in a world, where some rich banker look at some numbers and then decide how is armed conflict necessary somewhere in the world. Then, some other people make the plan and then it go,... in mass media, on streets, etc, etc.

Unbelievable. People are so expendable.

Only 40 % support independence. What about the 60% of the population who want to stay part of Spain?

you didn`t ask that question when we talked about Yugoslavia or Serbia. In Yugoslavia, those who initiated process of dissolution of country were far from democratic. In fact secessionists were Nazi, Nazi-Muslim or Wahhabi Muslim oriented and they got EU`s and NATO`s support.

Dirk diggler
6 Oct 2017  #52

where some rich banker look at some numbers and then decide how is armed conflict necessary somewhere in the world.

That's how the world works man. It's sad but true. And globalization along with technology just made their job easier. Remember when a small group of guys from PMCs tried to overthrow the government of Equatorial Guinea some 10-15 years ago? This was entirely planned with the backing of the British government - including Margaret Thatcher's own son as well as multiple ministers, bankers, etc. Well, it didn't exactly work out and the PMC guys got arrested and were put in some prison inside Africa (forget which country). Naturally, none of the financial backers faced any repercussion aside from a few condemnations from rival governments/countries which they also don't really care about the situation but issued condemnation for positive PR and such.

Crow
6 Oct 2017  #53

Look how now sound stupid term such is `balkanisation`. Should we now say `spniardisation` or `britinisation`? Or `trumpisation` or `hilarisation`?

I hope humanity goes out from these times little bit less arrogant. See, banker is honest. He think about all of us. Just wait for your turn of misery.

Crow
6 Oct 2017  #54

By the God, to put cross on myself, when I remember how lesser people from the western Europe for years enjoyed in bad news from former Yugoslavia. they loved to eat pop-corns and watch us in sh** for years. And now, lesser people eat its own sh**. Britain, Germany, Spain, France. Do you remember people that I was first on this forum to say how is for us Serbs, Poland real West. First on this forum. //I f*** you all for your blindness.// And idiots opposed to my stance. Idiots from lesser countries that I mentioned.

mafketis
7 Oct 2017  #55

you didn`t ask that question when we talked about Yugoslavia

For the record, I was against the dissolution of Jugoslavija and think the Serbo-Croatian speaking areas (at least) would be better off together than apart. But it's very different from the situation in Spain.

Jugoslavija was an artificial construct that was brought into being by non-democratic processes. It's not like Catalonia which approved freely and democratically signed on to a constitution and is now trying to back out.

But Jugoslavija was held together by a delicate balance and all it took was one Serbian mad man to make it fall to sh1t. This from people who told me they were happy living in Jugoslavija as it had been but had no intention of living under direct Serbian rule from Beograd.

Crow
7 Oct 2017  #56

Jugoslavija was an artificial construct

forget it man. One state can`t be created more naturally as it was case with Yugoslavia, back in 1918. Struggle of Serbs and other South Slavs for liberation from non-Slavic rulers.

But Jugoslavija was held together by a delicate balance

Exactly. But tell me, which country isn`t held by delicate balance. There were Orthodox and Catholic Slavs, even Muslim, who wanted Yugoslavia. But, when Vatican, Islamic league and Germany decided to spread influence, that balance was destroyed. They founded player- Croats from Zagreb, Muslims from Bosnia and Albanians from Kosovo.

Let me show you on Poland`s example. Germany have interest that Silesia secede from Poland. Germany is powerful. More powerful then Poland. Power means influence. So Silesian secessionists are encouraged while Poles and Poland are in defensive. Germany using influence to mobilize international factor. Problem escalate. Poland from defensive tries to move in offensive on its own territory. Problem deeper escalate. Poland retreat. Then, somebody say ``Well, what can we do, Poland was anyway artificial formation.``

Try same example on Spain.

Point is that, if you have foreign power capable to impose influence, balance in any country can be easily destroyed. Media would provide cover story, in any case.

This from people who told me they were happy living in Jugoslavija as it had been but had no intention of living under direct Serbian rule from Beograd.

Sure. But one who told you that was himself manipulated by some media. But it was him. Then, you yourself got your portion of manipulation by mass media and finally you two met each others and his story founded fertile ground in you. Think about it. Eventually, one day you would learn truth but even then, frankly, why would you give a sh** for that truth.

Actually, secessionists separated non-democratically. They had support of Vatican, Germany, EU, USA and Islamic league for that. Spot those powers. You think that we Serbs had a chance? No matter we speak of Catholic or Orthodox Serbs? No, my people was crashed and formation of some new nations stimulated.

mafketis
7 Oct 2017  #57

But one who told you that was himself manipulated by some media

That would have been the words of Milosevic in the Jugoslav media....

Crow
8 Oct 2017  #58

@mafketis

Forget it man. You don`t know facts. I telling all this to you not to arguing but merely to inform you.

I would like to see you face, when you realize, that Serbians actually winning. Step by step, winning.

back on topic please

Ironside
8 Oct 2017  #59

Seems that those in charge in Katalonia are some commie morons and they have been given autonomy they used to create this 'national' tension. As they are commies they're using national feelings they have created to push their own commie agenda. What that is - I care not. Enough to know they should be arrested and send to the North Korea with a one way ticket.

Crow
8 Oct 2017  #60

I`m not against Spain but for sure, I`m not against Catalonian Independence, if Catalans want it. They are natives of their land, same as Spaniards on their land. They have their own language, culture and heritage.


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