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A bad omen for Christianity? Notre Dame fire.



Bratwurst Boy
26 Apr 2019  #211

Wrong. While Christians turn the other cheek,

Yeah...well...that is a quite recent development...the first Christians invading Europe didn't hesitate to cut off pagan heads either.

Rich Mazur
26 Apr 2019  #212

Therefore what? Let the Muslim m-f**kers cut off our heads until they reach the same count? Do you know the score so far?
How about blacks having whites as slaves for the next 400 or so years to make things even?
That was a one of the stupidest yeah-but arguments.

Bratwurst Boy
26 Apr 2019  #213

Well...from a pagan viewpoint my compassion is limited. I don't care for either of you!

You as a non-believer crying now tears for the Christians is not very logical either...Christianity has come to it's end in the West and hence Islam won't ever rule here, their stupids time is over.

You know as well as I do, to be converted you need to be a believer first!

The score is only then settled when all monotheistic religions with their imported prophets are gone again from our lands...but that will take centuries. Why you bring the US slaves into it I dunno though....

Vlad1234
26 Apr 2019  #214

Since I remember from my east german childhood to regularly celebrating Yule in Kindergarten I would think we are closer to our roots than you

I'm not in paganism, but have to admit, there are still some traditions in Slavic countries which stem from pre-Christian times. Mostly they were assimilated by Christian holydays. For example, "kolada" in the winter (assimilated by Christmas), "willow week" in the Spring (assimilated by Easter), tradition of painted eggs (pisanki) also comes from pre-Christian times.

kaprys
26 Apr 2019  #215

@Bratwurst Boy
It's not only about religion but art, culture and tradition as well.

@Vlad1234
The thing about Slavic beliefs is that their symbols, statues etc were destroyed. A lot of things have been adapted into Christian rites, some expressions or customs - like the ones you mentioned or Marzanna, Smigus Dyngus, 'do licha'.

(Interestingly enough, Arkona -a Slavic cult site is located in present day Germany.)

And that's the thing about Notre Dame, there's more to it than just a church - it's centuries of European culture and tradition, a true witness to history.

Vlad1234
26 Apr 2019  #216

It's not only about religion but art, culture and tradition as well.

I think modern media and popular culture often destroys the best of these things. Often very dangerous to a mind and especially to the young. Do we need to return to a censorship?

Bratwurst Boy
26 Apr 2019  #217

It's not only about religion but art, culture and tradition as well.

Christmas/Weihnachten = Yule/ Winter Solstice (hint: Jesus wasn't really born in winter)

Easter/Ostern = Ostara/ Spring Equinox (Ostara Goddess of Spring)

etc.

Take away the religious naming (just put over the old traditions like a cloak) and you get many thousand years old pagan traditions. They have existed long before Christianity and will survive it too! :)

kaprys
27 Apr 2019  #218

I'm fully aware of it. Is there anyone who isn't? I doubt the Church desperately tries to hide it.
But imho you're wrong about traditions surviving without being preserved - just like Slavic gods were simply forgotten.
Again there's more to it, than just religion. As for Notre Dame it's also art, as for folk beliefs it's amazing how they would explain nature through their beliefs.

Take Poludnica - a demon that would lure you and kill you if you don't stop working in the field around midday.

Bratwurst Boy
27 Apr 2019  #219

I doubt the Church desperately tries to hide it.

Well, it's a sign of their dwindling power that they can't stop that knowledge going around anymore...just go a few centuries back and you might have been burned for talking about it, as in blasphemia.

As for Notre Dame it's also art, as for folk beliefs it's amazing how they would explain nature through their beliefs.

Like Notre Dame...there won't be any prestigious buildings like that being build anymore to honor Christianity, another sign of the downfall. It's still all nice and I would hate it to see destroyed. But nonetheless, it won't be preserved for eternity.

Everything about Christianity reeks stale and tired, only pretending to have a future...like a theme park.

kaprys
27 Apr 2019  #220

Whether you like it or not Christianity is an integral part of the European tradition. That's a fact.

Bratwurst Boy
27 Apr 2019  #221

I'm not denying it! :)

Don't get your knickers in a twist though, it took this from far away imported religion centuries to get a firm hold in these lands, it will take another few centuries to leave our lands again. But leaving it will.

And most people won't even notice by then, with most of the old traditions still being observed...only then with their correct naming and meaning again! :)

kaprys
27 Apr 2019  #222

I'm sorry as you seem to be really into Pagan traditions but I really doubt people will come back to the old rites. It's not gonna happen. Who would worship Thor or Perun if we know what thunder is. Who believes in Poludnica when we know what heat stroke is.

Interestingly enough, it seems that now it's Christian traditions that are becoming mere cultural aspects - like celebrating secular Christmas.

Bratwurst Boy
27 Apr 2019  #223

I agree....for most people in the West it's only about traditions nowadays...the number of true believers is dwindling.
It's not about worshipping Jesus or Thor...there is no worshipping whatsoever. Who has stopped worshipping Jesus or the Pope is not about to start worshipping Odin or Mohammed now...that is over and done! We have matured, the corset of believing in a book and fairy tales has become to narrow and confining for a rising number of educated people.

And that's a good thing if you ask me...

But it's about Europe's real history...about traditions over 5000 year old...our true roots...it's about the christian missionary who cut down the old Donar's Oak to destroy the old ways of our ancestors. To see them now failing and struggling and losing is observed with a bag of popcorn and alot of glee, I admit...

I could imagine that in the vacuum which Christianity is leaving behind that more and more people will want to re-discover the true history of our european ancestors. What it really meant to be European. That Europe wasn't the barbarian wilderness as Christianity teached for so long...that there has been great traditions before and that many of them are still very much alive! :)

kaprys
27 Apr 2019  #224

youtu.be/uKbuFYd468w

Here's a great short film (English subtitles available ) about Baba Jaga escaping hell. The 'devils' Boruta and Rokita are characters from Polish legends, too. Slavic demons that later were presented as devils due to christianisation.

Just a short, funny film full of allusions to the Slavic folklore, yet as they say Baba Jaga won't come back to teach crocheting on YouTube and the holy trees were cut down; )

Vlad1234
27 Apr 2019  #225

I didn't know there is Baba Yaga in Poland too. I thought it is purely Russian/Eastern Slavic character.

Bratwurst Boy
27 Apr 2019  #226

Christianity denigrated and burned the educated, skilled women...the patriarchs feared the female power...they put them on flying sticks, gave them long noses, ugly faces, warts, a mean spirit and especially bad plans...the perfect villains.

From that:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda

to that:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Middle_Ages

Bratwurst Boy
27 Apr 2019  #227

I didn't know there is Baba Yaga in Poland too. I thought it is purely Russian/Eastern Slavic character.

Look at what she might have been:

...."a many-faceted figure, capable of inspiring researchers to see her as a Cloud, Moon, Death, Winter, Snake, Bird, Pelican or Earth Goddess, totemic matriarchal ancestress,....

And what Christianity later made of her:

"...Yaga, appear in various Slavic languages; Serbo-Croatian jeza ('horror, shudder, chill'), Slovene jeza ('anger'), Old Czech jězě ('witch, legendary evil female being'), modern Czech jezinka ('wicked wood nymph, dryad'), and Polish jędza ('witch, evil woman, fury'). The term appears in Old Church Slavonic as jęza/jędza (meaning 'disease, illness')."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga

Vlad1234
27 Apr 2019  #228

Here is a new Russian song about Baba Yaga
youtube.com/watch?v=Qcl0wbFApSA

kaprys
27 Apr 2019  #229

Unfortunately, I don't understand the lyrics. As for the video, it's interesting that there's this quite attractive lady of a certain age as opposed to the old bad hag in the second part of the video (as we know Baba Jaga). Do they call her a bogini (goddess?

Also there was, and sometimes there still is, the 'institution' of szeptucha or znachorka - an old lady living away from the village who knows a thing or two about herbs and allegedly magic - a wise woman in a way.

As for representing the old or the ugly as the bad /sinister it's been pretty common for ages. The same applies to the young /beautiful represented as the good /innocent. As sad as it is, it's part of our culture as well.

But then 'Shrek' was released ; )

Now as patriarchic as the Catholic Church is, it worships Mary - Our Lady, Notre Dame ; )

BTW, I embedded the video, why do I see just a link now?

Vlad1234
27 Apr 2019  #230

The lyrics is based on the speculation that originally good goddess "Yaginia" turned later into the evil witch Baba Yaga (due to perversion of the original believes).

"Boginia" in Russian means "a goddess".

Bratwurst Boy
28 Apr 2019  #231

....due to perversion of the original believes).

As sad as it is, it's part of our culture as well.

The re-discovering of the true stories behind these perversions could be interesting for many Europeans and help to shoo this "culture" out. :)

Now as patriarchic as the Catholic Church is, it worships Mary - Our Lady, Notre Dame ; )

But whom exactly are they worshipping? Interesting article...it seems the preacher lied about her too:

....Thus Mary of Magdala, who began as a powerful woman at Jesus' side, "became," in Haskins' summary, "the redeemed ***** and Christianity's model of repentance, a manageable, controllable figure, and effective weapon and instrument of propaganda against her own sex."...

smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-mary-magdalene-119565482/

As Christianity leaves alot of our true history needs to be re-discovered and re-written....lies are not culture!

kaprys
28 Apr 2019  #232

Our Lady /Notre Dame is Mary, Mother of Jesus. And I was talking about her cult. Think of Częstochowa, Lourdes, Guadelupe, Fatima.
The cult of Mary is very strong in Poland. It was represented in John Paul II's 'totus tuus' - engraved on his coffin. She's the Queen of Poland as in the royal vows of Jan Kazimierz. Tens of thousands (if not more) take part in pilgrimages to Częstochowa every year.

As for Mary Magdalene and the article - I don't know if I had read it before or simply come across similar ideas in some sort of documentary or something. It seems to me that these were kind of popular around the time 'DaVinci Code' was released. Or 'The Passion'?

As for rediscovering and rewriting our 'true traditions', well if there's confusion concerning Mary Magdalene as the gospels were written decades after Jesus, do you really believe it'd be possible to trace back beliefs lost and forgotten centuries ago?

Bratwurst Boy
28 Apr 2019  #233

Our Lady /Notre Dame is Mary, Mother of Jesus. And I was talking about her cult. Think of Częstochowa, Lourdes, Guadelupe, Fatima.

My fault! :)

do you really believe it'd be possible to trace back beliefs lost and forgotten centuries ago?

Is it worth to find out the truth?

As the interpretations and teachings by the Church become more and more open to discussion and doubt it is par of the course that people will want to look deeper and elsewhere for answers.

But that is a process that will take centuries...we are just seeing the beginning. Christianity was so powerful for so long in these lands there is alot to re-discover and to re-learn.

kaprys
28 Apr 2019  #234

I see your point but your perception is somehow flawed by your (European, highly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition) upbringing :) You want the truth to be written down, you want to discover long lost things.

I remember reading two versions of the native American myth (creation of the world, I think). I found one totally confusing and chaotic. The other was understandable. It was only later that I was told that the latter had been written by a Christian missionary who'd somehow fitted it into our perception.

We won't be able to find out beliefs that were orally passed from one generation to another centuries ago. Beliefs varied from one region to another. Which option do we choose?

Also would you really keep to old beliefs? Would you, for example, bury a miscarried baby under the threshold?

Bratwurst Boy
28 Apr 2019  #235

I see your point but your perception is somehow flawed by your (European, highly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition) upbringing :)

Of course, there is nothing pure pagan today...it just isn't possible after 2000 years of eradication.

But in the wake of the change there is as a need to redefine what we are, where we have come from, where we want to go...the old monotheistic religions can't give these answers anymore.

To go back to our roots is one way to re-define ourselves again...it is mine, others will find theirs.

Beliefs varied from one region to another. Which option do we choose?

Do we have to choose?

One thing to cherish and to re-discover is our european spiritual diversity...the different gods and tales and traditions in every region. It was "the" Church who destroyed all this to get the people under control, forcing them to bow to one religious leader, to follow the same book of rules, which unified with fire and sword.

Also would you really keep to old beliefs? Would you, for example, bury a miscarried baby under the threshold?

I doubt that was a belief but a superstition...and no, I wouldn't! :)

This author put it better:

"....What is that conception? Simply this: that divinity is fundamentally inside the world rather than outside it, that God or the gods or Being are ultimately part of nature rather than an external creator, and that meaning and morality and metaphysical experience are to be sought in a fuller communion with the immanent world rather than a leap toward the transcendent.

This paganism is not materialist or atheistic; it allows for belief in spiritual and supernatural realities. It even accepts the possibility of an afterlife. But it is deliberately agnostic about final things, what awaits beyond the shores of this world, and it is skeptical of the idea that there exists some ascetic, world-denying moral standard to which we should aspire..."


nytimes.com/2018/12/12/opinion/christianity-paganism-america.html

I like the highly individualistic nature of paganism. There won't be ever a party or one leader or another book written to be followed. And the deeply personal spiritualism..I don't need nor want a preacher or someone explaining to me the "right way"...I like the naturalistic way of seing things...as in "Mother nature"...we won't ever build something like the Notre Dame and no true pagan would ever want to! :)

kaprys
28 Apr 2019  #236

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poroniec

It was connected with Slavic pagan beliefs.

As for Christianity itself, there are some various regional influences - just like Smigus Dyngus in Poland. A Slavic custom incorporated in Easter celebrations in Poland.

So pagan beliefs somehow survived in Christian traditions of different countries.
Still it's a pity there's more information about Greek or Roman mythology than Slavic paganism. I don't know much about Germanic pagan beliefs either.

As much as I love nature, I love historical monuments as well. And I loved Notre Dame as much as other historical buildings I have seen or visited.

But think of Stonehenge (the best preserved one) - there's something about us that makes us build cult sites. Pagans did, too.

Rich Mazur
28 Apr 2019  #237

So pagan beliefs somehow survived in Christian traditions of different countries.

Pagan should be either capitalized or in quotes.
I read the definition and didn't see any material difference between Pagans and Christians.

kaprys
28 Apr 2019  #238

google.com/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/pagan

Now report the dictionary entry as well.

But since it's obviously impossible to know two languages - as you have forgotten your (as you claim) mother tongue, forgive my clumsy English.

Rich Mazur
28 Apr 2019  #239

/pagan

I read it. So, what is the material difference between Paganism and Christianity?

as you have forgotten your (as you claim) mother tongue

I never claimed I have forgotten my mother's tongue. I forgot some words and how to read Polish text as blocks, not word after word and stopping on each to figure out the meaning. After 50 years away, I am more than excused. Besides, I never liked Polish even when using it daily before I left. Why is it that a Pole is somehow obligated to like what is Polish? I didn't like my parents, either.

Back to Christianity and Paganism.

kaprys
28 Apr 2019  #240

So what's your opinion about pagan influences in common Polish traditions? What are your favourites? Which ones do you find boring or disgusting?
How do you perceive Christianity in Poland? Is it endangered by any real external influences? Having read about several fires of churches in Poland, do you think it's a bad omen for Christianity?

Let me remind you I was a regular here when you first posted and I remember your attempts at Polish - I still don't believe your story but if that's what makes you happy, let it be.


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