After Brexit, Northern Ireland may obtain a special status in the EU

Yes, so it was, thanks for pointing that out, not that it makes any difference. But I'm glad you're suitably ashamed of yourself for sullying the purity of your British English with Americanisms:)

Brexit going smoothly I see

I think it drives home very clearly the ridiculousness of trying to retain part a small piece of Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom. The only people who really want that situation to continue are a minority of Ulster Unionists. If the Brits hadn't insisted on retaining Northern Ireland then they would be free to negotiate a Brexit deal without this border issue. This is the 21st century and we've all come a long way. The Ireland, and indeed the Britain of 2018, is a different place socially, economically, politically to 1921 but the DUP and their ilk are still living in the 1650s so..............

Atch,I like your posts,they are intelligent,well informed,interesting and often quite funny.
But I think you are being very unfair to The British here.
They didn't hold on to Northern Ireland for any advantage to themselves,in fact it has been an expensive burden and one that I think Eire would struggle to afford.

The British held onto NI to protect,what was then the majority Protestant population.

It was though the English whose historical disdain for the Irish led to the need for rebellion!

I've quoted this line before and it remains true for many of the ruling class of British aristocracy, taken from a late 18th century entry in Dr. Johnson's dictionary of the English language and the definition of the potato: "A tuberous vegetable grown in generally cold soil, consumed chiefly by pigs and Irish..."

Rather sums up the whole problem in a nutshell.

You are talking about ancient history.
Totally irrelevant now.

Not according to many Irish living and working today in England.

When I say that you say that I'm hiding my head in the sand...heh:)

I didn't say they did. They held on to it because of pressure from the Ulster Unionists and it's the same story today. However there is no doubt that subsequently, successive British governments demonstrated no understanding whatsoever of the situation in Northern Ireland and extraordinary arrogance, particularly Margaret Thatcher. But we've come a long way from that. I was just pointing out that if the Brits hadn't given into the Unionist's demands for partition in the first place, they wouldn't be in this situation with their Brexit deal and you wouldn't have the British government relying on the support of the DUP to form a government.

@Lyzko


The Irish in England today bear no ill will towards the English, nor indeed do the Irish in Ireland, apart from a very small die-hard group of Republicans.

With respect, neither of you knows or understands Irish history or the complex relationship between Ireland and England well enough to discuss it and I don't have the patience to explain everything. You're talking about nearly a thousand years of shared political and social history which is very hard to reduce to a few sentences.

What?
Because I was born in England that disqualifies me from understanding Anglo Irish history?
I understand the English side and you understand the Irish side.
You have an insight to the English from having lived here.
I have an insight to the Irish from my wife's family.
What is the difference?

The big mistake (if you concede that the UK had to create Northern Ireland for political reasons) was in not drawing the borders in a more sensible way. They left areas with strong nationalist tendencies in the UK, and it was a terribly stupid mistake. I understand that the idea was that they wanted Northern Ireland to be economically viable, but what they came up with was just a stupid and unworkable arrangement. If the borders reflected the will of locals, then Northern Ireland should have been quite a bit smaller. It would only have left West Belfast as an issue, and that could be easily managed by giving them their own elected administration with the same powers of the Northern Ireland parliament.

Had they left South Armagh in the Free State, it would have become a problem for them and not the UK government. People think that South Armagh is a modern problem, but it seems that they've had problems with outsiders for centuries, not just 50 years.

Once the damage was done, it was impossible to change things. You're absolutely right that British governments had no real grasp of the issue, especially when you realise just how much money and effort was being spent on securing the province. I'd even argue that the current government is clueless, because they're turning a blind eye to the punishment beatings going on now, and they don't seem to have any creative ideas at all for how to restore the NI Assembly.

With respect Delph,according to Atch,you are not qualified to comment on this subject as you are not Irish.

As it is, they had to leave out three whole counties of the province of Ulster in order to create a 'false' Unionist majority. If they'd elminated any further Nationalist areas, they might as well have abandoned the whole idea of partition. It wasn't so much about making NI economically viable (it ended up p*ss poor anyway) as ensuring that the Unionists would hold power and govern the annexed territory.

Anyway, the situation can't continue much longer, especially now that the Unionists have lost their majority. There is no place in the modern, developed world for an anachronism like NI. If May's government falls, and Brexit doesn't go ahead, the issues it has raised in relation to NI have changed the face of Northern Irish politics permanently. So some good has come out of Brexit :)

Your history was much more recent............ :-)

metro.co.uk/2018/11/15/brexit-voter-cries-on-radio-after-admitting-he-was-wrong-to-vote-leave-8144950
Somehow I have the feeling he isn't the only one...

You can listen to James O'Brien on youtube btw. There are many fascinating calls like this one.

Voter regret is part and parcel of real democracy. If voting doesn't carry consequences (including unpleasant ones when voters choose poorly) then why does it exist at all?

This is assuming of course that these people really did vote 'leave' and now regret it.

I listen to a lot of British radio and believe me,more remainers phone in to say that they are so disgusted with The EU' s pig ignorrant stuborness that they would now vote leave,than the other way round....Britain is getting even more anti EU than it was before.....we will leave with no deal...because The EU fear us...

The EU doesn't fear the UK at all. They're too busy laughing at the incompetence of the British side, as the UK has gained nothing so far.

But they do fear us......they fear that we will prove that European states can survive and prosper outside of The EU.
And we will do that.....

Except there's really no evidence of that actually happening. The GBP is nearly at 4.8 to the PLN, growth is poor, no-one knows anything about Brexit, May's own cabinet is rebelling against her, the "deal" on offer is dreadful and a perfect example of the EU's strength, and the UK is even being bullied by Moldova over WTO membership.

What really made me laugh was India offering a trade deal as long as the UK took more Indians.

And there is really no evidence of it not happening.
All conjecture.
The Indians and Sri Lankans here are all pro brexit....and you know why....and most of them have British passports and the vote.
I really do not see why we should give preference to a German IT expert over an Indian one if the Indian is superior.
The deal does not show The EU's strength,it shows the weakness of TM's premiership.

The EU does only stand by that what she said before the Brexit referendum...it had been all Brexiters who promised the sky and how easy peasy all would be and how the british eagle would soar after it had thrown the EU-shackles away...how much money they will save...how Britain will become the land of milk and honey...and again, what a cake walk leaving will be...

Now lookie!

As I always say, if having a lot of Indians was good for a country then presumably India itself would be a nicer place....


Because of course it's impossible for the weak UK educational system to produce its own IT experts.... UK education and training = so bad they have to fill vast numbers of job openings with foreigners!

I must admit I have to agree with you on this one, the whole situation becomes more farcical with every passing day!

There are only two options left:
- no deal Brexit
- stay in the EU.

After all those negotiations it burns down to that. It was obvious that EU wouldn't want to do Britain any favours. It was illusion of May, she is really incompetent and surrounds herself with dubious people, her preferred tactic sitting on the fence while claiming she is riding a horse.

At this rate, she might not last the course. I think many would be happy to see her go, the votes of no confidence are evidence enough of that. To be honest I think that whatever is put on the table is going to be rejected for one reason or another. I'm fed up with it all now!

I agree too,Britain has lost this through total incomptence.
The Brits just did not understand how hard The EU would. play and were too weak.....
The game is over now.....leave with no deal or remain are the only optiions...


No,it is because they are prepared to take lower wages......The UK has become hooked on cheap labour,a situation entirely caused by The EU's free movement rules and Britain's success at creating jobs.

They should have known it was coming when Poland refused to discuss any sort of immigration cap before the referendum. What would probably have saved Remain (some sort of restriction on benefits/immigration) was completely blocked, and that was an obvious and clear sign that the EU would also play hard during negotiations.The UK had nothing to negotiate with, and when the Irish started laying down the law, May was clueless and didn't know how to respond.

Right now, I think the only reasonable decision to make is to put the deal to the voters. Run it as a two part vote - Remain/Leave, and if Leave wins, launch a second question - Deal/No Deal.

It'll be expensive, but it will give a final answer to the question. If the deal is rejected in parliament next month, then plan the Remain/Leave referendum for the end of January. If Leave wins again, hold the Deal/No Deal referendum at the end of February. The EU countries can meet at the beginning of March to formalise things, and there's no going back at that point.

Well they were never going to make it easy to prevent other countries from following suit, but to be honest I'm not sure it was a question of weakness, rather that I don't think there was any type of plan in the first place. There was just lies, lies and more lies, and as soon as the result was in, Boris, Farage and the rest of the goon squad legged it leaving May to sort out the mess. I feel sorry for her, but she certainly doesn't inspire any confidence in me.