Let's discuss muslims, jews, buddhist, and christians

Even if you consider faith as a kind of insurance and assume the all knowing god wouldn't realise it or was ok with such motive you are insured only of a god of one religion. What if the Jewish god is real? Or the Muslim one? Or the pagan gods? Your insurance doesn't work then or can even harm you if god takes offence in the fact you believed in the wrong thing.


And are you ok with that? That it's not actually what kind of person you are that counts? I'm asking because that was big thing for me and the first time my faith got shaken. I never thought it fair or just.

Plus if god is the kind of creature that cares more if ppl worship him and constantly ask for forgiveness for silliest things rather than what kind of person they are then spending eternity at his side doesn't seem like my cup of tea. I have enough ego maniacs on earth.


For one various examples in animal world teaches us that it's not as unnatural and abnormal as you'd like to think.
Second, no one forces gay Christians to take part in practices that are against their religion. They are free to use their own judgement however there is plenty of non believers who have no reason to follow Catholic church line. So all the LGBT are free to choose and they may decide that they don't care what the Church says. If the Church is free to spread their propaganda so is the LGBT circles. And more and more ppl are kind of at odds with the church position even if they are practicing Catholis. I know quite a few that, otherwise being practicing Catholics, think that gay ppl should be able to have relationships as they harm no one.

One of JP2's encyclicals said in essence that faith and science are not opposed to one another but compelement each other.
It was called Fides et ratio (Faith and Reason) and its preamble stated: Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).

In the end, science and religion are really on the same path towards the same truth, merely going about this discovery path in radically different ways:-)

Can't argue much with that, can you?

Amongst consenting adults fair enough. It's a free for all, a market place of products and ideas. It's an entirely different story to target impressionable young children, brainwash them about gender choice and orientations, use stories about the cute little penguin that had two daddies and even caution them not to tell their parents about what was said. That is precisely how LGBT operatives function and that is totally impermissible.

Benedict and Francis both wrote about a similar subject. They argued for example (I simplify) that there can be evolution, but there still had to be a creator behind it who created a living being from which evolution could continue all the way to humans. So we're back at square one: God vs. a simple and very common combination of chemicals. The probability for the latter is certainly higher, but that doesn't solve the impasse.

I assume you apply the same standard to the church stance? That is that priests should not talk about 'the sin of sodomy' to the kids? That in fact if they do it it's wrong?

Really?


Oh dear.

Perhaps you'd prefer children to have an idea only of the world you consider suitable.

There is only one God.
And that God sent His only begotten Son to earth to die on the cross for our sins. (Grace)


If you don't take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior who died on the cross for your sins nor ask forgiveness for your trespasses then it is doubtful in my Faith that you will inherit the Kingdom.

Just being kind and generous person only will not get you there.


God is not a creature, He is the Alpha and Omega.........the Supreme Being.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water as a gift to the thirsty from the spring of life. Then he told me, "It has happened! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

Revelation 21:6
You say spending eternity at his side doesn't seem like your cup of tea ?
Your only other option is to spend it at Satan's side.
God also provided us with a free will.

You didn't even try to attempt to answer the questions. But that's ok. One can always say 'I don't care about that because I believe and therefore I don't care about certain questions, logic etc. But then don't talk about it as kind of insurance because it's not or, at the very least, a very bad one. Even in the main monotheistic religions you have one in three chances. And don't fool yourself that your faith makes it any more probable. Millions of ppl believed, believe and will believe in different gods as strongly as you believe in the Christian one.

Just out of interest Lenka what made you turn you back on the faith of your country, I am also asuming that of your parents, was it the education system, bad experience or something else, just asking no prejudic or malice intended.

Maybe yes, maybe no. In the beginning was the word. The big bang is an interesting theory, but what caused it to happen. There has to be cause and effect. Could one huge explosion of inorganic matter somehow miraculosuly become organic and evolve into the mega-complexity of living beings comprising zillions of atoms all knowing when to fly south for the winter, when to hibernate, how to change colour when threatened....let alone the super-complex human condition?

From what I remember, the general Catholic idea these days is that God wasn't responsible for the Big Bang, but rather helped things along the way. It's fascinating stuff, and we shouldn't forget that it was a Catholic priest that actually came up with the Big Bang theory.

Your question is completely ok, wouldn't think you have bad intentions.
Well...It was a lot of things. As a kid and young teenager I liked prying before bed and I found comfort in that. But to me it was always about being the best person you can be, turning the other cheek and so on. Then I saw the hypocrisy of ppl going to church. Especially the older ladies who loved to judge everyone without mercy and being generally nasty. Then it was the stance of the church on homosexuality, divorce, abortion...And then the education. When a new priest took over our class he started by saying to a group of 17 year olds that he's not there to discuss with us. At that point I was probably agnostic/atheist and I just came back home and said to my mum that she'll either sign me out or I will be 'nieklasyfikowana' (not passing due to not attending the classes) and I will resign anyway as soon as I turn 18.

After I resigned a priest came for a Christmas visit with his cheat sheet and started going on how I won't be buried in a blessed soil and so on. Confronted with my indifference he told me (half orphant of year and a half) that my father is turning in his grave. He stormed out when I told him he probably welcomed the change.

Now my only link with the church is my mom and it's because of her that I'm still included in the statistics for number of Catholics in Poland.

Many modern Northern Europeans rarely if ever even attend church, such as in England, France, Germany and a number of the Scandinavian countries. Here, primarily older people, seniors or perhaps the terminally ill, can be found in most churches.

Unlike the mega churches here in the States, church seems to have lost its broader appeal throughout the Western half of the continent.

You're a better person than me, because if I had been you, he probably would have become familiar with the window within a matter of seconds.

Oh that's nothing. A friend of mine had it worse. Her father was terminally ill and came back from hospital to die at home. He really wanted to take part in the last Christmas visit so they let the priest in. How do you think what did he do? Comfort him? Give support? Wrong! He started going on how the illness is punishment for sins etc. The mother quickly kick him out and after the vicar complained to his superior how awfully he was treated by that family (!) the main priest came to the family to apologise. Didn!t make the family 'unhear' all that crap though.

That's just horrible. It really shows how some of these "holy men" are deeply disturbed people with no connection to the real world.

A friend invites the priest in just to argue with them, which I find quite funny.

...hiding behind a cloak of respectability and collecting a handsome fee in the process.....

Maybe yes, maybe no. In the beginning was the word. The big bang is an interesting theory, but what caused it to happen. There has to be cause and effect. Could one huge explosion of inorganic matter somehow miraculosuly become organic and evolve into the mega-complexity of living beings comprising zillions of atoms all knowing when to fly south for the winter, when to hibernate, how to change colour when threatened....let alone the super-complex human condition?

As long as you're alive there is always a chance you'll eventually be able to see past the hypocrites, posers and phonies and finally see the light. Yes, there are bad priests and nuns, but there are also bad lawyers, doctors and engineers, manufacturers of defective products and deceptive advertisers. Should we forego their services altogether because of some rotten apples?

@ Delph
I enjoyed it too but then my main priest came and basically ruined it for me :) He said in front of my mom that it's good that if I have doubts I don't pretend to be a devout Catholic. He was reasonable and honest so there was no fun in mocking him. Quite a surprise since he was always made fun of for his died hair and kind of gay air about him.

@ Polonius
I assume you wanted to write something about my quote...
EDIT:


True, I did that already but then you also have the dogma I don't agree with.

Maybe you just don't understand it. Perhaps so far no-one has crossed your path who could properly epxlain it to you. Keep and open mind and keep searching.

It's actually quite fascinating reading about the Church's position on these things, because it's actually quite enlightened and perfectly accepting of what science has to say on the matter. No-one has come up with a convincing theory as to how the Big Bang happened, and the Church simply seems to state that it's perfectly possible for God to have started it all while helping things along the way.

There's a nice article here about it - law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/vaticanview.html- Catholics certainly are far more enlightened than those lunatics in the US who take The Bible literally.

Oh I do understand. I understand that a person married to a drinking psychopath can't divorce them and build a happy relationship with someone new, that a homosexual person has to either lie all their life or stay alone. I also understand that women for simple fact of having certain genitalia cannot have an equal say in the church.

I appreciate your sentiment Polonius but after my long journey from a Catholic to an atheist I started to find many things in the Catholic church that I find dumb, immoral or simply silly. Look simply at the reaction to books like Harry Potter or The Da Vinci Code. Especially the latter is just a silly conspiracy and yet Vatican refused to allow the crew to shoot the movie there. Boo hoo, one of the biggest religions on earth feels threatened by one book!

Ahemm, Lenka, it's not only the Church that refuses steadfastly to keep up with the times! The Orthodox Jews won't even permit rampant, if unreported, domestic violence even to be adjudicated by an American court, outside the sole, "objective" auspices of their own Bet Din:-)

Women STILL aren't permitted to pray side by side with men, let alone their husbands, and are continually forbidden from reading from the Torah!!

They cannot sit together in temple and remain hermetically sealed off from the outside world. In this way, they're rather like the Pennsylvania Amish, except in the Luddite view of technology or rather, "technophoby"!!

Oh I do know Catolic church is not alone in that but I was raised as a Catolic and never considered joining any other religious group and went straight for atheist so I don't have that much knowledge and experience about other faiths

Fair enough, Lenka! Your commentary, compared with certain other nameless entities here on PF, is always well-thought out, inciteful, and worth reading:-)
Having said all that, I was raised in the Jewish faith and while not Orthodox myself, have experienced second-hand the seriously primitive belief system of certain of my coreligionists and it's not pretty!

Just yesterday, on the second to last day of Passover, I apparently angered our local rabbi when I remarked upon hearing of those swastika leaflets thrown onto the street in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, that we Jews need to do A LOT more serious outreach if we're going to succeed in sanitizing our image among the poor and socially disaffected in our society:-)

He called me a self-hating Jewish anti-Semite and, on the subject of name calling, I shot back "And you're a Republican in sheep's clothing, so there!!!"

Too much infighting among our people, Lenka!