Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 6

Do you have a link to an article or news or report or something?

Yes, I would like to know more about it too. There's not much details about it in the Polish press and the entire matter is a bit confusing. Poland is the best place to repair and service Leopard tanks - all the infrastructure is here, our factories have been doing this, as well as modernising Leopards, for a long time, so apart from necessary equipment we also have the know-how and experienced staff; it makes perfect sense to do it in Poland. To build everything from scratch in Lithuania or do it in Ukraine under Russian bombs seems illogical.

Whether it is the German unwillingness to cooperate with PiS or Kaczynski's anti-German phobias remains to be seen (I'm betting on the latter, but who knows).

*nods*

Yeah....that makes no sense....Poland doesn't want a german tank factory and they don't want to repair tanks to help Ukraine....because Germany demanded not only money for that but actually to much money??? That's what I understand from Iron's posting....that all makes absolutely no sense!

These tanks are/would be no longer german after all but ukrainian....

Could it be that the polish gov fears a to strong ukrainian army? With to many working tanks??? But how else will they have a chance against Russia??? *scratches head*

Please someone post an explanation....a statement from a polish politician or anything! (Can be in polish, I have a translator:)

PiS fear forced migration from Germany as much as they fear Russia. Both are existential threats to Poland. So they are in a tough spot.

Look BB, I don't keep it. I would have to look for some 'source' all day, I don't need it/
I can tell you what it is all about. You can take it or leave it.

Tanks can be serviced in many ways, not only one.
Those coming from the front need more of 'service' and attention and work.
People who are doing in Poland that have know how.
Germans want to use their untested procedures, way of doing it which Poles knows won't work.
There is a question of money - Germans claims 12K per tank, Poles 100K per tank - those are just numbers given by the Germans I don't know about those numbers, but at glance 12K seems too little.

Means those most likely lies.
Someone from the industry in Poland commented that those differences are not crux of the matter.
What matter is a fact that Poland won't buy or use German tanks in the future and as such there is no longer need for German tech.

So Germans would rather build long term relationships either in Lithuania or indeed in Ukraine to make money in the future from selling them those parts, tech, know- how of German weapon.

I hope it helps.

Negotiations failed, German side had an urge to make an excuse in their press, blaming it in Poles. What that tell you? It says a lot, do I need to spell it for you?

Well....someone must have told you....or you must have read it somewhere....I'm just asking for a source....anything....


What? Where? When? Which Germans?


But this is about tanks for Ukraine in their war against Russia! It's not about german tanks or the future polish tanks at all....

I'm not going to name that person.

So....not a politician or a Journalist then?

Even then....was "he" the source? Or did he got it from another source?

Come on Iron! Gimme something....ANYTHING!!!

Of course someone will pay for those tanks, either EU, NATO, or IOU from Ukraine is fine, it means they owe us. Who else is replacing their entire fleet of tanks with better models and is willing to send to Ukraine such large amounts of tanks next five years? No one.

Polish taxpayers as their farm are being ruined by the influx of ukrianian foods.

Sorry BB, you look for it if you want to. I can only say that it makes sense, don't you think?

.....actually not for me, sorry! Or otherwise I wouldn't be such a nagging pain in the arse right now...

Claiming Germany let such an important project for the ukrainian war effort drown because they had been "cheap" aka demanded to much money from Poland is quite the heavy accusation, not given lightly....and not taken lightly either!

Note: I'm not denying it, it could very well happened this way, but for that depressing news to accept I need some more substance...and then go crying in my corner!

Would you rather deal with russia in Ukraine or in Poland?

The question is: would Russia realistically be silly enough to invade Poland? Or Finland? Or Sweden? Or even the Baltics?

I think we panicked a little bit in the first year of this war. Now, that we know a bit more about Russia and Russian military capabilities - is there a reason for so much panic?

No, dear child, that's not enough. To use all these military marvels they need people. You, Russian haters, were so full of glee about that "meat grinder". Well, Russia has been grinding UA very well lately and that's why that counteroffensive is going nowhere fast. Just ask Zhole...

And this...Quoting:

Ukrainian troops' inability to breach Russian defensive lines is, to a large extent, due to minefields that are "destroying NATO-supplied armor, wounding soldiers and zapping morale," according to the Financial Times.

"We can push with 10 brigades but it won't work because the mines are everywhere, every half a meter there are mines," a Ukrainian unit commander told the British newspaper.

But, since you are a brave Pole, you can go there and be a hero ... for 10 minutes. They will write a book about you...

Hmm... a mine doesn't care if it is a Ukrainian or a Russian who steps on it. So, if the entire front line is mined to such an extent that means that Russians aren't planning any offensive moves either any time soon. Are we going back to positional warfare, WW1-style? That would mean that this conflict could continue for a very long time.

They care who controls them. Quoting:

They're using radio-controlled mines and in some very creative ways to create issues [for Ukrainian troops]

Are they all radio-controlled? Probably only a small fraction. When one side hides behind trenches and mine fields it doesn't exactly indicate the willingness to attack; and when the other side doesn't have enough forces to break through the fortifications, it means positional war, dragging on for a long time. :-/

You may be correct.

Russia controls 20% of U land and 90% of U resources and effectively achieved what it wanted: No NATO in Ukraine. I don't think Russia wanted to occupy the whole of Ukraine.

This phase is simply to bleed U of its soldiers and the West of its money and patience. That's my opinion.

Yes Ukraine merely being a failed state is a russian victory condition.

Quoting RT:

Poland fumes over Putin's 'Stalin gift' comment
The Russian leader earlier recalled that Warsaw "acquired substantial territory in the west" courtesy of the Soviet Union

Morawiecki agreed with Putin. Quoting RT:

In response, Prime Minister Morawiecki labeled the late Soviet leader a "war criminal guilty of the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Poles."
"Historical truth is indisputable.

To the best of my knowledge, Morawiecki didn't say that Putin's claim was false.

@Bratwurst Boy
Seems it all bs or a part of the negotiation process. This center is working and fine in poland fixing tanks including leopards and Germany is on it as well.

See T you and your CREDIBLE German press! Full of it , fake news,

Well, just putin "forgot" to add that russia's taking half of the Polish lands in the east was also putin's "courtesy".

He didn't say water is wet and bears sh]t in the woods, either.

Stalin didn't 'give' Poland anything so that language is whack to begin with.

Stalin "promised" free elections in Poland that never happened....

putain starts mentioning Stalin then let's bring up everything Stalin did regarding Poland including invading in 1939 as an ally of Gitler and annexing a huge chunk of the country....

Stalin's courtesy

Not yet a failed state but a bit of a truncated buffer state at the moment: population down from 41 to 29 million...

obserwatorgospodarczy.pl/2023/06/25/dzietnosc-na-ukrainie-jest-katastrofalnie-niska/

... GDP down by 30%; also - 20% of territory and most of industry lost. A rather distressing predicament.

Sure, maybe after the war (but there's no end to it in sight) they might be accepted into the EU, after years of adapting their legal and economic system to conform with European standards, so the EU membership might help.

I spoke to a Ukrainian girl recently - she complained about Ukraine being poor, about the low wages etc., so to console her I told her that Poland was also relatively poor but now, 20 years after joining the EU, things are much better economically. She looked at me in a strange way, asked me "do you think I'm willing to wait 20 years for Ukraine to get richer?" and laughed. I sort of agree with her. A girl like her shouldn't wait 20 years for anything.

Things don't look ecstatically optimistic for Ukraine.

The German TV station ntv reported that the first Leopards from Ukraine were transported to Gliwice for repairs. So they got along somehow.

Tacitus and his CREDIBLE German press! Earn the title fool of the week. :D

The minefields and trenches represent an insurance.

Through hubris and sheer lack of manpower, the Russian military got caught with its pants down last year in Kharkov Oblast. Then came the painful abandonment of the city of Kherson, though in expert fashion with minimal losses - even though evacuation was happening across one of the widest rivers in Europe. After these debacles, it seems prudent enough to begin digging in, in a serious way, to draw a line under any future "gestures of good will".

If the Ukrainians exhaust themselves sufficiently while attacking these lines (and they have to, because unlike us they are on a schedule) - I don't see why Russian forces can't shift again to the attack over the same.

Radio-controlled or not, we have maps of these minefields. These are not mines laid by soldiers who were issued a few mines to place in front of their lines haphazardly - so that nobody in the future has any idea where to look for them - but huge areas which were systematically mined by engineers. These typically deploy the mines in lines along different compass axis, which are recorded and copies of which are distributed throughout the forces. This hugely simplifies the task of demining, since you can proceed to remove the mines as you follow the pattern until you've counted the correct amount - just like in the windows game Minesweeper.

The way mines were used in Laos or Afghanistan, or even Yugoslavia - is not the same way they are used by the Russian military. Give us at least enough credit for that. In those places, it was typically irregular formations that were issued some number of mines, and proceeded to hide them as well as they could think. Zaporozhye is a numbers game by trained engineers, who would certainly have in mind future demands of maneuver.

PHEW! :)