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Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 11



Bratwurst Boy
16 May 2024  #121

...I wonder about the european part of Russia/Russians! Will they so easily accept be be counted under "Asians"?

Torq
16 May 2024  #122

@Bobko

I am delighted. If amateur strategists like us can conceive of such great solution, then I bet the professionals will come up with something even better. Happy days.

@BB

I would appreciate if our German friends and neighbours stopped piling obstacles at this glorious moment when the vision of Marshal Piłsudski finally comes true and the cause of eternal enmity between Poles and Russians disappears. Danke!

Bratwurst Boy
16 May 2024  #123

I would appreciate if our German friends and neighbours stopped piling obstacles

Damned! I did it again, didn't I....

*leaves to think accordingly about misdeeds*

Torq
16 May 2024  #124

I did it again, didn't I...

Your intentions were good - we don't bear any grudge. ;)

cms neuf
16 May 2024  #125

1920 wasn't the last war between USSR and Poland.

That was 1939 - when you invaded together with your Nazi German allies, and nothing to do with Ukrainian nationalism - rather the result of your friendship with Hitler

Torq
16 May 2024  #126

with your Nazi German allies (...) the result of your friendship with Hitler

Cms... *facepalm*... can't you read? We are so close to the historical deal with Russia and realizing the holy vision of the Good Marshal (see the previous page) and you come here and scratch old wounds?

Go stand in the corner, boy!

cms neuf
16 May 2024  #127

Yes sir - I know that Molotov Ribbentrop is the love that can't speak it's name

Ironside
16 May 2024  #128

Damned! I did it again, didn't I..

saboteur

Bobko
16 May 2024  #129

1920 wasn't the last war between USSR and Poland.

I realized this shortly after finishing writing my post :)

However, the 1939 business, was a direct continuation of 1920 - for the people in Moscow.

Poland extracted an extremely extravagant price from Petlyura for aid in expelling the Bolsheviks from Ukraine.

The main price, was recognizing a new Polish-Ukrainian border along the Zbrucz River. With the Treaty of Warsaw, Poland gained Galicia and Wolhynia.

In the event, Poland did not manage to solve Ukraine's problems, and then signed a separate Treaty of Riga with Russia, which again erased Ukraine.

However, Poland managed to keep the territories it gained from Petlyura, until 1939.

Also, don't forget that Stalin was a front commander in 1920, and he personally remembered the humiliation dealt by the Poles.

Velund
16 May 2024  #130

And it didn't learn anything...

We learned to survive, keep our statehood through wars and revolutions, and live in peace with 220+ nationalities and all major religions

I doubt we need any advices from poland in any of listed aspects..

And you haven't noticed a pattern yet? You didn't learn anything?

We clearly see the pattern. Every time before we left process not done completely, tried to show more humanism thet we should be... Maybe really Kresy should go to Poles to been sanitised completely and without too much sentiments...

Paulina
16 May 2024  #131

We learned to survive, keep our statehood through wars and revolutions, and live in peace with 220+ nationalities and all major religies

I doubt we need any advices from poland in any of listed aspects..

You didn't learn to have normal relations with a bunch of your European neighbours though and due to that you have to live with the "suffocating fear" of NATO "surrounding" you ;D You allegedly live in such a great "fear" and under such a great "threat" of NATO that you even had to invade your "brotherly" nation and kill your Slavic "brothers"! Wow! :O Meanwhile, Poles have normal relations with majority of their neighbours and don't have to invade them to feel safe... Maybe RuSSia can learn something from Poland (and other countries, like Germany, for example) after all? 🤔

Every time before we left process not done completely, tried to show more humanism thet we should be...

If what you did to Ukraine was "too humane" then what's left? Complete genocide?

mafketis
16 May 2024  #132

This is, of course, raging nonsense.

I welcome counter examples....

Torq
16 May 2024  #133

I welcome counter examples

Certainly. Let's see...

if they're not actively humiliating others they feel humiliated themselves... destroying another country = humiliating someone else

Russians don't destroy countries. OK, they occupy them but most of the time they let the locals run things after Russians take over (sure, run things according to the latest Russian fashion of communism, socialism, kleptocratic oligarchism or whatever, but still). They don't organise holocausts of entire nations, they incorporate them and try to re-educate them (with various success, as Polish example shows ;)).

friendly trade and diplomatic relations = humiliating to russians (because they're not humiliating their partners)

Again, it's not true. Poland, for the most part of 1945-1989 period, had positive surplus balance from our trade with the Soviet Union. If you care to do the search, I discussed this issue with Bobi and even gave relevant academic sources (Polish!). How is giving more than you receive humiliating to your partners?

The reason that I reply to your posts with "raging nonsense" one liners is that I feel tired to repeat the same things over and over again.

Russians are not evil, just like we are not evil, Germans are not evil (at the moment) and - yes, I may be taking the game a bit too far but even the French are not evil. The wars between countries, my dear children, don't start because people are evil. It's the circumstances, conflicts of interests and balance of power that make wars inevitable sometimes.

*sighs*

mafketis
16 May 2024  #134

OK, they occupy them but most of the time they let the locals run things

wtih a steady stream of pro-soviet/russian propaganda and people had to lie in public about how great the ussr was....

static3.redcart.pl/templates/images/thumb/7148/1500/1500/pl/0/templates/images/products/7148/029f6e7f491c79e6cec0a2781b4a12bb.jpeg

desahome.pl/maciej-nehring-przyjazn-polsko-radziecka-plakat-1952-121452.html

zielonagora.wyborcza.pl/zielonagora/7,35182,25330712,czy-festiwal-piosenki-radzieckiej-byl-open-erem-prl-u-i-czy.html

They don't organise holocausts of entire nations

What are they trying to do in Ukraine? what have russians here on this forum said about Ukraine?

positive surplus balance from our trade with the Soviet Union

You trust official PRL figures? Or are these reconstructions? Why were discussions of meat exports to the USSR banned from PRL media?

And bobko here himself (more than once IIRC) declared russia's position as an exporter of natural resources to be humiliating (didn't use those words, that was the underlying idea)

Of course not every russian is evil, but a large majority of russians have values that are antithetical to the values of most Poles.

Korvinus
16 May 2024  #135

While you guys keep flinging sh*it at each other, Russian northern offensive against Kharkiv kind of fizzled out.

Russian infanty only had some initial support from tanks and armored vehicles but once these were busted, new ones didn't arrive at the scene.

This was a clear sign Russians aren't willing to invest more into this push. They just won some 8 km of border territory, paying for it with lots of dead men.

Torq
16 May 2024  #136

what have russians here on this forum said about Ukraine?

It was only Kostya, and Bobko made it clear that he was appalled with that.

Or are these reconstructions?

Some of the papers I read were as recent as 2015.

large majority of russians have values that are antithetical to the values of most Poles

Hmm... it is a very general statement and difficult to argue with. Yes, nations are different in certain aspects but you - on purpose - depict Russians in the worst possible way. It's unfair.

Gotta catch some z's. Good night.

mafketis
16 May 2024  #137

you - on purpose - depict Russians in the worst possible way. It's unfair.

to counteract those who make excuses for them and their war crimes (and the psychotic ideology that drives them into wars).

Velund
16 May 2024  #138

live with the "suffocating fear"

I do not have time now to write pages of text to you. Just would like to advise you not to project your national complexes and nightmares onto your neighbors. And about " surrounding" - after NATO has voiced as a possible thing strategy of "overwhelming strike" and accumulated stocks of cruise missiles capable of overloading any air defense system imaginable, the issue of removing launchers to a distance from the main industrial centers exceeding the radius of action of these missiles will be a permanent issue. And even if there are no other options than to make small changes in the political map of Europe, this will be acceptable to us. How do we avoid these options? By making sure that the political "elites" of countries are concerned with the interests of their electorate and not with the mantras of "Euro-Atlantic solidarity".

Novichok
16 May 2024  #139

I do not have time now to write pages of text to you.

Try ridicule and mockery. It takes less time.

Bobko
16 May 2024  #140

They just won some 8 km of border territory

Maybe it's JUST 8 km, but it means no more raids into Belgorod by Ukraine's crew of Russian neo-Nazis.

It means no more shelling by Ukrainian artillery, for those border regions.

It means we now have a beachhead for further advancement into Kharkov Oblast, while Ukraine has to invest into building yet another line of fortifications further in the rear.

Most importantly, Ukraine has had to move some of their most capable formations to this direction. It'll be very interesting to see now how they will act when the next blow comes, from the southeast or south. No more reserves to plug holes with... something will have to give.

Oh yeah, also - Russian units are being rotated into Belarus again, and the SSO has ramped up the number of raids into Sumy Oblast.

Your Ukrainian friends are being stretched like a cowhide drying on a rack.

Bobko
17 May 2024  #141

Reading a history of the Ukrainian Revolution of 1917-1921 now.

I encourage our Polish friends to study this period.

Then, Ukraine was much stronger than now. They were "nationalizing" entire FRONTS of the Russian Imperial Army after the humiliating treaty with Germany. They had at their disposal Russian Imperial officers, in tens of thousands (Kiev alone had 12,000 officers that could be mobilized). They had German and Austrian military support (Germany sent close to 300K men).

Russia itself was consumed by a terrible Civil War, where the Ukrainians ranked only third behind the White Russians, and the Western Coalition as a priority.

We all know the result.

Novichok
17 May 2024  #142

This one goes into the I Wish Europe Dead file...

EU ambassadors have agreed to place three Russian news outlets under sanctions, a move that would effectively ban them across the bloc. Moscow has threatened to take "retaliatory measures" against Western journalists in Russia.

This proves that the communist jamming of Radio Free Europe didn't stop. The communist scum now self-identifies as the EU democracy and jams Russia's outlets.

Same shyt. Different means and target.

Prayer for today: Dear God, please never let another American die for these mother fvckers. Just let them die if they pis off Russia.

Alien
17 May 2024  #143

EU ambassadors have agreed to place three Russian news outlets under sanctions

Will they sanction Novichok?

Novichok
17 May 2024  #144

Novichok is what Western Russia haters need. Or Polonium-210...

PolAmKrakow
17 May 2024  #145

@Bobko
The lack of Ukrain mobilization will prove to be the biggest problem for Ukraine.

With more US ammo and weapons arriving daily, Ukraine still does not have enough men. Just saying what I have been for the last 8 months, and now the manpower problems are becoming serious risks to securing the line of contact. We are slowly approaching a time when Ukraine will likely be overwhelmed and be forced to negotiate or will collapse. More men, a few hundred thousand are needed immediately, or the Biden presidency will go down as the worst in history not just domestically, but internationally.

jon357
17 May 2024  #146

ussian northern offensive against Kharkiv kind of fizzled out.

This is good news, as is the big mobilisation going on now in Ukraine.

infanty only had some initial support from tanks and armoured vehicles but once these were busted, new ones didn't arrive at the scene.

They have very small windows of opportunity and invariably use them badly.

Mr Grunwald
17 May 2024  #147

@PolAmKrakow
You are aware that we live in a digital era, where 1-2 manned drones by two soldiers can take out a full squad of infantry that are traveling in a APC in a attack position?

With enough drones, 20k Ukrainian soldiers can take out 2 million Russian soldiers if they didn't have any anti-drone defences with drones alone.

I would rather look at drone production, metal requirements etc and how many Ukrainians can use on a monthly basis.

WW2 big armies is nonsensical in this day and age, just think about the amount of casuelties a machinegun did. Now imagine said machibe gun, that is flying, drops anti-tank bombs and can scout at the friction of the same risk and extremely low cost...

Mr Grunwald
17 May 2024  #148



Found a link, in case somebody did not believe me.

gumishu
17 May 2024  #149

and live in peace with 220+ nationalities and all major religions

especially the Chechens

Velund
17 May 2024  #150

Everything is fine with the Chechens now. As soon as radical Wahabbite "instructors" started arriving in Chechnya not to a gang to train, but to a pit, and it became possible to create a normal number of jobs for the locals, the situation began to change for the better.

And now they have their favorite occupation - war. They go to fight with the banderites with pleasure. Then they come back with orders and medals, old people look with respect, the list of potential brides increases ... And there is an opportunity to enter a military school with privileges, to become an officer, a respected occupation among Chechens....


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