Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 13

The depth to which you dive into Russian life Is commendable

BS. The first Rus state was established in Kyiv, today`s Ukraine. Muscovy aka today`s Russia is a much later development. A few centuries difference.

Ok mister teacher of children...

The first Russian state was in Novgorod. This is a fact.

Later Rurik and his Scandinavian buddies went further downriver, and took Kiev.

Kyiv Rus is Kyiv Rus while Muscovy aka current Russia is a different matter.


That is the only truth you have told within the past few hours. Ha!

>M-mein monke Putin.... Kursk....
>What, again?
>No, the other Kursk.

The idea of "Kievan Rus" was invented in the late 19th century by Russian historians.

Before then, nobody had the idea to question that Russia was the direct descendant of ancient Rus.

So be happy promoting a Russian historiographical paradigm.

Even funnier would be if you tried to tell me what "Kiev" was doing after the fall of the so called "Kievan Rus".

It makes no sense to claim that Kievan Rus should be subordinate to Moscow-based Russian state when Moscow itself was subordinate to a Rostov principality that succeeded Kievan Rus. It's akin to Turks of Turkey today claiming that Turkmenistan should be subordinate to Turkey because both are successor states to Seljuks.

@Korvinus

Muscovy was subject to Vladimir-Suzdal, which was always the second or third throne after Kiev until that time.

Vladimir by the way is more East than Moscow.

The "older brothers" sat in Vladimir, and the little cousins in Moscow.

But the Moscow princes were the same Rurikoviches, descended from the same founder of Rus. They overtook their cousins, and eventually established dominion over them. Through shrewd and daring ways, yes, but they did.

Exactly. Ancient means Kyiv. Thank you. You are second then, not first. Kneel down before Ukrainians as your foremothers, you barbarian Muscovite Russians!

You know this is ridiculous.

It's like Homo sapiens bowing down before Australopithecus.

You think Muscovite Russians are homo sapiens??? No, you are fekking savages whose mentality was shaped by Asian Mongols. Ha!!!

Mongols are also Homo sapiens.

The princes of Moscow consolidated all of Russia under their leadership - this is a historical fact.

I think, if I am not mistaken, you also have such people in your country's history.

First Polish king Bolesław Chrobry conquered Kyiv in 1018. They were conquering each other like every generation. Finally Kievan Ruthenia was conquered by Kazimierz Wielki in 1330s. BTW Polish coronation sword "Szczerbiec" (notched-one) is supposed to be named so because Chrobry notched it on the Golden Gates in Kyiv.

But it's just a legend most likely.
Moscow emerged as a separate principality only after the Mongol conquest. Before that it was an appanage for younger line of the Vladimir-Suzdal princedom.
Only after the conquest did the princes of Moscow became tax collectors, first of whom was Ivan I appropriately known as "the Moneybag" who ruled in 1325-1340.

In the late "Kievan" Rus era Kiev was surpassed by south-western Galicia-Volyn and north-eastern Vladimir-Suzdal.
The Ukrainian Republic is basically a modern incarnation of the former, the RusFed of the latter.

Yes.
Bobko, your version of history was made up by Russians to justify all your conquests in Europe.

He used that wealth to unite Russia.

His granson's quietly gathered the strength to throw off the Mongols.

I dont' care about any of that.... russia recognized Ukraine's borders in 1994 and pledged to defend them.... which shows how much russian promises are worth.

russia out of Ukraine... Ukrainians do not need russians.

I have noticed one big difference between Ukrainians and Russians when they don't want to answer a question.Ukrainians just say "No Comment", Russians just make up a lie, however ridiculous!

Kremlin bulshyt all the time. Spare us these fairy tales. Ukrainians have proved they reject barbaric Russianism. They have no choice but to fight till victory.

Oh do enlighten me, please! What sort of scenarios did this discussion arise in?

...and then the CIA and Soros decided to have a little uprising in 2014 and to chase the democratically-elected president out.
When they were done with that, Ukraine started mumbling about joining NATO. That caught Russia's attention. Just as when the USSR started shipping funny things to Cuba, the US got slightly upset, too. Amazing how it works...

The Russian army is in Russia. Call Putin if you have any doubts.
In the meantime, can you show me where the Russian Army is today? I would greatly appreciate it.

Ukraine now holds 1000 sq km of Russian territory. Thats no small accomplishment. The question now is, can they hold it? If they can, for how long? Long enough to get Vlad to the negotiation table? Only concern I have is did Ukraine sacrifice men for territory they cannot hold, or will those holding it now be the ones sacrificed? While they havent taken a major city, Russian people now know what it is to have war taken to them, and that cannot be helping Vlad at home. What happens if Vlad gets tired of all of this and wants to end things quickly?

Primarily symbolic.... the wannabe superpower is exposed as pathetic and weak....

..

If Russia was weak Russia would be Yugoslavia by now and have a NATO base near Moscow.

That was these mother fvckers' wet dream about Sevastopol...

This Kursk invasion is Z's last gasp...A good PR stunt and nothing else...If not, what was the objective? Occupy Russia?

Now the question: What is more likely...

1. Will Russia say oh crap, we didn't know we were this pathetic and weak so we are going to apologize and return CDL...or
2. Let's wrap this BS up! On to Kiev! Now!

So, maf, 1 or 2?

Guess how much Russia controls of Ukraine's territory?

About 110,000 square kilometers. At the beginning of the war, Russia controlled approximately 185,000 sq km.

How much is 110,000 sq km?

It is approximately the size of Bulgaria. It is also larger than Cuba, South and North Korea, Hungary, Portugal, Austria, Czechia, or Ireland.

It's about twice the size of Slovakia, or three times the size of the Netherlands or Switzerland. When compared to Israel, it is six times larger.

So just about a 100 more such offensives, and Ukraine can sit down at the negotiating table with Russia in at least an equal position.

One problem is that Ukraine is already retreating from Kursk. Articles are being written in Western papers saying "Ukraine should call it a win, and pullback ASAP".

For you history buffs out there, this has many parallels with the Battle of the Bulge - the last major German counter offensive of WW2. The Americans at the time were also shocked at how Germany managed to assemble yet another fresh army of almost 500,000 men, and execute an unexpected attack.

In the event, the panic was overblown, and this counter offensive represented one of the last agonies of the Third Reich.

For now, it does not look like Ukraine is in agony.

You are one scary individual, Alien.

I'm afraid to ask what agony means for you.

Ukraine is in perfect health, of course!

Appearances are deceiving, man. Putin has also been dying of cancer for 2 years....and he is still alive.

Well, on paper, Ukraine still has several million men it is able to draw on.

Several hundred pieces of armor that were ostensibly donated to them, have yet to show up in combat.

Their National Bank has a healthy amount of foreign currency reserves.

It looks as if Trump may actually not win the elections.

I think that's about all that Ukraine has going for it at the moment.

Now here's a short list of what qualifies as agony by my standards:

1) Huge collapse in GDP

2) A minimum of 4 hours a day without electricity, in practically every corner of the country. Closer to 12 hrs in many places. This is murderous for business.

3) At least seven million people emigrated, most of them never to return. Exactly those people left, that Ukraine needs in order to have a hope for a future. Women of childbearing age, and children.

4) The engine of Ukrainian economic growth for the past century is now almost completely in Russian hands. Without the Donbas, Ukraine is just another resource poor European country.

I'll go to the store right away to buy something Ukrainian, for example Crimean sect

I hope these 4 hours are at night.
Peace will return, people will return.
So it fits into the European Union.

Excellent thread on how useless the idea of "negotiating" with russia is....

x.com/andersostlund/status/1822904004361253123

tldr: the russian national story at present is 'we are a great empire' and they will endure unimaginable hardships to keep that idea alive....

what he doesn't say (overtly): countries that were once part of the empire but are now free of it and better off for it incite cognitive dissonance and free-floating aggression among russians.... this, and not NATO, is the threat of Ukraine... being a moderately well-off democratic state with regular elections and changes of government....

because sooner or later russians will ask 'we can't we do that?' and the whole russian system can only function as long as the population remains placid and apathetic...

the paradox: russia has ambitions but its model of government and society (which is clings to ferociously) prevent it from ever achieving them...