Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 13

@Bratwurst Boy
Two years ago I would have agreed with you about Putin being done concerning this move by Ukraine. But, no one is going to move against him. Wagner is not going to turn on him again. Who is going to challenge him, and will they be better for Ukraine and the west?

I do agree that Ukraine could become Putins Vietnam, or a repeat of Afghanistan. And I think the likelyhood of that becomes much higher if Kumala wins the presidency and continues to flood Ukraine with cash and weapons. Lots of men dying every day, and neither country can keep this up forever, but Russia has a lot more men to draw from than Ukraine.

In a country of a gazillion people there should be NO ONE???? Hard to believe....

That we in the far away West don't know anything of anybody is part of a dictatorial autocracy where everybody and his grandmom ends up in a gulag or flying out of a window when he only looks the wrong way....but that doesn't mean a thing!

Putin didn't made only friends during his long time in power....the vultures around him are already sniffing for one moment of weakness, Ukraine could be it! That is the natural way of goings with such power games...

@Bratwurst Boy
Again, two years ago, I would agree. But with Prigozhin dead, and Wagner under Putins control, who takes him out and how? The general public seems to be behind him, or at the least just doesnt gaf unless the war directly effects them. I know all the old stories about the USSR and power struggles, but I just dont see anyone to do anything. Navalny is dead. Theres no real opposition any more. Sanctions will remain in place for decades, and Brics has more than 100 countries signed on for their currency and payment system. I am just thinking rationally and looking at the big picture. And if the US falls into chaos, Putin has no rival while the US turns inward to address that chaos.

...and again: HOW WOULD WE KNOW?

With someone like Putin on top that is exactly the image he wants the world to see....but then why are the Gulags so full, why are there still politicians, militarians etc. dying so often so weird deaths every few months? He even goes so far as murdering the opposition in exile, he must feel so threatened by them!

I can't help compare that to the last year of the GDR and Honecke waving to his "supporters" during the last big parade in Berlin on the 7th of October 1989....the world could only see a happy people waving back...a proud army with gleaming tanks....a communist youth all in their blue FDJ-shirts....and it all looked so perfect and the GDR with it's great leader Honecker were surely there to stay for a loooong time...after all couldn't everybody see how the whole people loved living in the GDR and admired their leader???

Well...as you know only a few weeks later it was all over and I promise you, most of the waving crowd danced later happily on the ruins of the Wall and couldn't wait for the new time.

So....never trust the carefully build and controlled image of a dictatorship, it's all a lie!

Half? Germany before the nazi conquests had 468k km2 of territory. The lands you lost to Poland are 101k km2 plus some to Czechia. So you lost a quarter.

Territory loss is what happens after a lost war. If you fought in the most chivalrous manner - army vs army - never killing a child, never committing a war crime, never slaughtering millions of civilians, you might still lose territory as a result of the lost war. Normal thing. So, you paid for the lost world war with a quarter of your territory - nothing to do with Karma.

Now, when we talk about karma, we would have to mention concentration camps, civilians slaughtered indiscriminately in the most horrifying manner (try reading what happened in Praga district during Warsaw Uprising for example), elites murdered systematically etc. If you murder 50 best scientists in a country, 50 best engineers, 50 best musicians, 50 best doctors etc. this country will never be the same, it will still suffer 100 years later. Germans slaughtered many more than that. So many that for a normal person it is even difficult to wrap his head around. For this, BB, you paid nothing. Zero Karma. So many nazis living in Germany after the war and never facing justice - where's karma for them? Your country being showered with dollars after the war and being rebuilt to restore and exceed its former wealth and power - where's the famous karma in that? So, if you ever meet a Hindu, you can tell him - "Hey, Arjun, you idiot. Look at my country! Your karma is raging nonsense". :)

There's no karma, BB. There's no justice in this world. Perhaps justice happens in the afterlife. Perhaps... here's hoping...

But still. You chancellor coming here to Poland, and saying that Germany will think about considering some sort of compensation for those victims of nazi regime in Poland who are still alive (80 years after the war ended!) is a little bit too much mocking. Little bit too much in-the-face-spitting. Little bit too much of humiliation.

BUT... will any karma happen to Mr Scholz for this galactic insult? We all know the answer to this question, don't we? Zero karma.

It's a good thing that these days Poles and Germans are good friends and neighbours and that Poles are genetically incapable of hatred! So, I hope we have established that the idea of karma is the biggest idiocy in the history of the Universe. We can now go back to the thread's topic.

And of course as usual I logged into the wrong account. It's not easy to upkeep two personalities - I wonder how people with schizophrenia manage that on a daily basis. Respect! :)

I believe in justice....but human justice is a fragile concept, often enough not neutral but depending on the viewpoint....once justice is surely another ones grave injustice!

See:

.....Then, in December 1970, Poland reaffirmed its renunciation of reparations claims under a new agreement with West Germany, which recognized the Polish border on the Oder and Neisse Rivers - in what had been pre-war Germany. Without this acknowledgement of post-war borders, the very existence of the Polish state would have been called into question.

Formally speaking, then, the question of reparations is closed. Moreover,the Polish constitution makes clear, in Article 241, that "international agreements concluded in accordance with the previous constitutional order (including under the 1952 Constitution of the People's Republic of Poland) are treated as ratified international agreements with prior consent expressed by law." Citing the same documents, the German government also considers the subject closed.....

dgap.org/de/forschung/publikationen/whats-behind-polands-reparation-debate


....let's keep it that way....re-opening old closed cases is a sure way to end that!

Eternal land, huge cities and old towns for peace, as punishment for wrongdoings...I call that justice, why don't you? Whic price tag would you put on Danzig and Breslau etc.?

Could you produce a document in which Poland says that we renounce the reparation claims? Because I know that such renunciation was made not in 1970 but in 1953 under Soviet pressure, and this renunciation was rejected by the Polish Parliament in 2004...

orka.sejm.gov.pl/Druki4ka.nsf/($vAllByUnid)/F80F8B58923A3423C1256F2600283519/$file/3315.pdf

... already 20 years ago! Could you show me a similar document (in Polish or in German, that says Poland again affirms the renunciation of reparation claims)?

By the way - this is interesting (run it through Google translate)...

polskieradio.pl/39/156/artykul/3229207,70-rocznica-wydania-przez-rzad-prl-oswiadczenia-w-sprawie-rezygnacji-z-reparacji-wojennych

As for the regained lands. Have we hidden them anywhere? The last time I checked they are still here where they always were. Germany is free not to recognize them as Polish and try to reconquer them. Those lands have nothing to do with reparations. They were given to Poland not by Germans (who opposed it fiercely) but by uncle Stalin, and not for free but for much larger lands that Stalin took from Poland in the east. We lost more than the entire territory of Czechia in the "trade". How can such a loss be considered a compensation for anything?


You need to ask Stalin this question. He did the trade: Lwów and Wilno for Danzig and Breslau, he moved the pawns on the chessboard and moved the borders. Poles didn't ask for it and Germans certainly didn't agree to it. So ask him. Not in this world though... :-/


Hmm... if I didn't know you BB, I might think it is a threat.

In any case, I am against Poland pursuing the reparations (and I mentioned that several times, haven't I?) precisely because of our common future. I am willing to sacrifice justice on the altar of better and safer future in Europe. I accept the fact that justice will never be done but thanks to that our children may live in a better world. Life is strange and cruel like this sometimes.

Besides, in the current situation anything resembling true reparations would ruin the German economy and that's not something that would benefit anyone. As a substitute for war reparations I would accept the agreement for Germany/the EU (the same thing really) to stop meddling in Polish internal affairs...

- stop telling Poland what energy we can or cannot use (and pay multi-billion fines if we use the "wrong" energy);
- stop telling us what branches of industry we can or cannot subsidise (remember the fall of Polish shipyards?);
- stop telling us what kind of car engines we can or cannot use - the Green Khmers idea of banning combustion engines since 2035, enforced by the EU, is outrageous and will devastate Polish economy;
- stop telling us what sort of social/cultural changes we should promote or enforce etc. etc.

... you get the general idea, don't you?

Poland would remain the part of free trade of goods and services area but would be exempt from accepting all the neomarxist nonsense. For me that would be more than enough as reparations. Moreover, if such agreement was made, Poland would waive any sort of financial help in form of structural funds or any sort of "free money" (lol!) from the EU. Those funds serve as a tool to corrupt local politicians, cause local governments to go into debt, and in the long run do more harm than good (wealth comes from hard work, discipline and frugality not from the "free money" nonsense).

Would such form of "reparations" be acceptable to you, BB?

....hmmm....but then there would be new negotiations needed first, right? Not just another demand from Warsaw....politics don't work that way.

IMHO it's hard to see a german gov agreeing to that....it's just hard to sell...our land PLUS another uncounted billions of Euros in reparations...additionally to all the EU support funds, you know...where Poland has been for years the biggest receiver and where Germany the biggest payer. There are many good reasons to let that case closed.

And the image of Poland could be very well become that of a greedy glutton/grab-all which will never be satisfied. Not to mention that the whole agreement "land for peace" could disintegrate....and who wants that?


Why don't you ask Ukraine for reparations/land back? Why only Germany? Do you think we are the "easier soft pussy"? :)


Agreed!

The EU will change in the coming years anyhow....with every more rightist/more nationalist new gov in Europe the whole EU will be cut back to the original supportive trading organization it started out as...less the actual leftist meddling thing it has become. That is coming to an end!


*nods*

*high five* :)

Hmm... but that would be hard to sell because you have been giving the same support funds to your former Hungarian and Croatian allies for example (in case of Hungarians and Czechs it was even more per capita than for Poles), so selling this as war reparations would be dismissed quickly.


Of course you are. I thought that much was obvious. :)


Here's hoping! *fingers crossed*


*high five and a handshake* :)

If only politicians were smart enough to have the conversation the way Kania and BB just did. EU would be a much better place. Still, its better and safer than the US even with a war going on next door.

Karma is about individuals, not populations or descendents.

So the German example isn't the best.

A good argument against the idea is the beloved russian saint josef (иосиф / იოსებ) responsible for how many deaths? and how much did he suffer? a few hours on the floor?

the concept of karma is quite strictly connected to the concept of reincarnation

Yes and no. Depends who by.

It's moved beyond eastern religions and has been embraced more widely within the New Age movement and within Spiritualism.

It's also part of English folk tradition albeit in an unnamed way. The Old Testament mentions it and it's also a key concept within Wicca.There are also analogies within Islam.

Thank you, PolAm.

Seemingly the easiest thing in the world - a civilised conversation with logical conclusions. However, for some reason a complete abstraction for the current EU politicians


Populations consist of individuals and if the same people who believe in karma also believe in reincarnation, then it is also about descendants.

Check mate.


Yes. There are many good examples against the idea of karma. I wonder how so many people still believe in the concept and keep saying nonsense like "karma always comes back". No, it doesn't!

In the Old Testament it is like that,


What goes around, comes around.

Yes, yes - karma's a b*tch, what goes up must come down, you reap what you sow, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Unfortunately, as we have just proven, all this is raging nonsense.

.....assumed I will be reincarnated into the same ethnie, if not the same family!

But it could very well be that I was an SS soldier during WWII but will be reincarnated as a Jew in Poland? (No, that isn't the karma....or is it??? *head starts to smoke*)

It really does, doesn't it?

So not only the idea of karma is nonsensical but the one of reincarnation as well. I'm going for a walk in the city centre and the first Hindu I meet is going to hear some honest words of truth!

Na ja....I'm undecided about the idea of reincarnation...there are to many reports of experienced NDE's to watch on Youtube....alot of them remember then their former lives....they can't be all liars!

So....I dunno....I will wait what happens when it's my turn (and hope for the best)! *shrugs*

It would be funny if you were reincarnated as a nationalist Pole and I as a fierce AfD memeber, and we met on PF again around 2070. :)

Pawian would be reincarnated as an IDF soldier, Jon as a homophobe and Paulina as tradwife. 😂 😂 😂

...there could be a "deja vu"...as in: "I know this guy....hadn't we had this discussion before???" :)

That would be totally weird!

Looking forward to it :)

*if reincarnation is real, that is, and the resurrection of Christ kinda destroys the concept... hmm...*

Who knows....maybe we met already before.... ;)

Okay...now it get's spooky and I need my lunch! *waves*

See ya later, BB. *waves*

EDIT: This is all outrageously off-topic. As punishment we will all be reincarnated as PF mods.

It happens.

As punishment people get bitter and write things like blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Are you calling me bitter, son of a Brit?

A few days ago Ukraine hit the oil depository in Proletarsk (360 km from the front).

It's still burning and priests have been called in to wave an ikon at it or.... something....

x.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1825046958353907865

bonsu! russian family values.... parents pretend to not recognize their POW son....

x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1824423804422000793

two ideas:

maybe he was a prisoner and they don't want him back....

maybe they've already received some money from the government that they don't want to give back....

I bet when bully Putin sent in his three-mile-long convoy to attack Ukraine that he never thought in his wildest dreams that his war would turn into Moscow being attacked back.
Ukraine launches 'largest drone attack ever' on Moscow in latest humiliation for Putin
Ukraine launched a massive drone attack on Moscow since the start of the war in the early hours of this morning.
It was part of a larger aerial bombardment of Russia by Ukrainian UAVs, with the Kremlin claiming to have shot down a total of 45 drones.

msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-launches-largest-drone-attack-ever-on-moscow-in-latest-humiliation-for-putin/ar-AA1pagCL?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=632b87633c48481d956ea891e8aa4686&ei=17

If Putler's troops know that they can surrender and they will in no way be mistreated, he is properly f*cked.