Brexit 2019 and Poland

Fukk Forbes. Corporate bullshite rag that knows sweet FA about the British mindset..

Still nothing. If every Brit got a raise of 25%, would they even mention "Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy"? with one-third of them probably not being able to spell it correctly?

Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy is, at best, the means, a tool, to achieve what really matters in our lives. Nobody give a s*** about sovereignty and the EU bureaucracy as such if it does not translate into basics: being financially more secure, being safer walking down the street, and having access to quality health care. For example.


That team didn't follow up with: but what does that mean to you? My bet is that the respondents never used the term sovereignty/EU bureaucracy in their kitchen. Not even once in their lives. As in: Honey, I am really upset because our country does not have enough sovereignty and too much EU bureaucracy. What's for dinner?

All of you are just dancing.

yes, that's all youv'e got, just stupid juvenile invective and lies. leave, spieprzaj dziadu!

Atch has hit the nail on the head.
Whilst I am sure that immigration played some part in some peoples reasons for voting leave it was nowhere near the most important
reason.
Self rule is what it was all about.

Quote: Immediately prior to the referendum, data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?', with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.

Yes, that's all I got, just stupid juvenile invective and lies, a*****e.

yea lots of crap to get a hug

Rich, stop being so stubborn. A few people closely connected with the topic told you that immigrants weren`t the main concern. Ease up on them guns, then. :):)

E.g,


And this one

Self rule to accomplish WHAT?

phew! An euphemism for: stop free movement of people i.e. immigration.

IF not for that there wouldn't be even referendum in the first place? What other issue is there?

German domination in the EU? Before Brexit vote Britain was holding its own very well. Financial institutions, economy wasn't doing THAT bad in the EU being a second economy in the EU. Forcing progressivism on the people? Is not an issue either, Britain is doing it willingly on their own.

So immigration, austerity measures and neo-liberalism mixed with progressivism was the main cause people reacted to by laying it all on the EU doorsteps. Politicians are good at shifting the blame. Yet, as the factor of all that was so called free movements of people .....Is that even controversial?

You mean migration from within the EU. Most migrants came from one country.

That may have been an issue for some, however the manipulated vote in the 'referendum' with proven electoral fraud is a little more nuanced than you appear to 'think'.

Looks like it'll either be killed off completely, or at worst, be Norway plus, with the four freedoms intact.

When were you last in Europe?

technically the four freedoms are the free movement of goods, services, capital and.... labor (not people as such worker bees)... neolibreralism in full bloom (move the widgets around where they're needed and don't concern yourself with the human cost...

That is palpably NOT true though Maf - and you know it. Freedom of movement is just that. The freedom to move wherever the EU citizen so wishes in the Union, in search of employment, or a place in that they wish. One could imagine that if a German moves to a hillside in Transylvania and becomes a leech on the goodwill of the poor people there, then his life would be made pretty unbearable - the locals would physically remind him of his freedom of movement right there and then - but technically - he could move there is he so wished. The whole meaning of the four freedoms are in the word right there.

So called three month contracts or skills tested visas are not within the scope of freedom of movement.
FOM worked pretty well up to now. Of course, xenophobes grasp at straws, because they don't do "different". As a case study, let's take a look at transport. If a British lorry driver has problems making a living because of competition from some Polish chap, then that's a difficult one, but just sometimes it's his own fault.

When I need to make more money I teach English on a Sunday. When I can't be arsed, I don't. The money I then don't earn is down to me. I am free to do as I wish. The 99.99 other percent recurring of the population of the EU should also be free to make their own decision in such matters. If a British lorry driver (my brothers' neighbour in Leicestershire) is too lazy to travel to where the pick up is on a Sunday then that's his problem - and somebody else will volunteer to accept that load - nowt do with freedom of movement, simple supply and demand. Of course the British guy demands his "rights" and kicks up a fuss - because he forgets the EU benefits that he is free to drive his rig throughout Europe with little paperwork and with no added charges. He wasn't even born in 1973 and doesn't understand the difference in living standards BEU - almost as archaic as life BC.

No 4 freedoms = a bygone world, which doesn't seem to affect David and Sam as they jet around looking for the next photo op, or JRM, but the rest of us have less opportunity, even the lazy lorry driver - who his village pseudo thatched roof cottage and 4 cars in the drive, doesn't need to work on a Sunday, and doesn't want to - but begrudges the Polish chap in the next village the gig because "these foreigners are taking our ******* jobs".

(As spittled in my face at said brothers' local pub a few years ago by said overweight British haulier)

No, immigration was cited separately as another reason and it was immigration from within the EU. Although there must have been a certain amount of concern around the immigration crisis of 2015, there was also, without doubt a number of people who felt that the UK had been flooded with 'Eastern Europeans' and the proposed expansion of the EU even further put the wind up a lot of people. Brexit had been brewing for a long time, going right back to the days when Brits were told that bananas had to be a certain shape etc,

Anyway, the discussion regarding reasons for Brexit, should have been taking place on the forum three years ago. Let's talk about what's going with Brexit nowand how it's likely to pan out in the future.

A couple of interesting things from the EU Summit:

The 'good behaviour' requirement has been scrapped from the extension contract, ie the EU has decided to trust British MEPs to be honourable and not disrupt EU decision making.

Macron was strongly opposed to any further extension after October and there was a sense that France could veto any further extension beyond that.

Leo Varadkar said that the UK, should they opt for a customs union type deal, should be allowed a say in how such deals are constructed and has indicated that Ireland will be an ally for the UK in achieving the best possible trading deal with the EU.

Easter break now for the UK parliament so it's not likely there will be an further developments for a while.

europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers


Weren't they? IIRC Labour estimates on the number of people from the new members states who would come to the UK were about ten times too low... That's a massive disruption and between employees and families and children it's a large burden on social services

It was great for Poland to be able to export a large part of its unemployed (but employable) population but not so great for the indigenous population who had to compete with them... there's no such thing as a free lunch and the bill for the disruption caused by a massive inflow of Eastern Europeans landed at the door of those most sorely affected. Of course the out of touch elite just calls them xenophobes and expects them to suck it up... forgetting that they can vote.

I believe that to be nonsense. I'm pretty sure that the truth is that government statistics show the influx since 2004 has raised UK GDP to a greater financial benefit than the costs incurred in education, healthcare, etc etc. Of course the right-wingers will tell you that millions of immmigrants walked into free housing, free this, free that - or in the vile language of Theresa May - were guilty of "Queue jumping".

The real facts are that councils in areas of high immigration were faced with inadequate resources to service their growing populations because of Tory cuts and austerity, instead of the benefits from raised GDP being ploughed back into local communities. You can't blame freedom of movement for government policy.

Face it Maqf - Brexit is dead, and there was never any financial reason for it at all - just bowing to the braying mob.

europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers

Confused. I thought you were suggesting that Freedom of movement is purely designed to move exploited gangs of recalcitrant labour force across countries. Whereas we can see that it is in fact a lifestyle choice, enshrined in European law that you can live and work where you damn well please, within the European Union, and be afforded the same citizens' legal rights - in FULL), wherever you go.With adjuncts of course, tis true, as to the time frame for social safety net...but the principle holds.

That is freedom, and the Tories (whose Brexit boys have the financial ability to do the above at will) and the stay-at-home layabouts who voted for the worst dogma in the Labour party would deny such a right of Freedom of movement to the continent to the rest of Britain? Is the majority going to let them do such?

I don't think so :) :)

Total GDP has increased but the movement in GDP per head is far from clear

tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

There is also convincing evidence that wages in the bottom quartile have been lowered by mass immigration

So I do see that some of the working class have a genuine grievance about that. However there are other factors at play - automation, outsourcing to China etc.

In any case if you are complaining about being poorer than exiting the EU is the worst way to solve the problem - it will just make the whole country poorer with a much greater effect on public services and the hit most keenly felt in Brexit voting areas.

The four freedoms underpin European society. Why would someone need a visa to live 30km away, or a work permit to work there?


It's tha fallacy of naked capitalism; had the Thacher.Major cuts and the vile Tory austerity not occurred,, there would be no strain whatsoever on the system.

Basically the rich denuding society of its own resources and blaming the poor. And to add insult to injury, fiddling elections in order to create division among workers.

It's not a coincidence that the same politicians who advocate loudest for 'brexit' are exactly the same politicians who advocate for privatising the NHS, public resources like transport, removing the Working Time Directive and dismantling the welfare state.

Sadly some of the poor swallowed this. A classic case of manipulating the less educated.

But we the majority have to keep the pressure on, and enshrine a confirmatory referendum in law if May refuses to revoke article 50, which she really should, seeing as at the last count there were three factions in parliament with radically different agendas - and there being no majority for any legislation.

There is however a democratic reason (namely a referendum result). But that's the way of the modern world, votes only matter if they coincide with elite financial interests (with progressives first in line to keep the lower classes in their places).

With legally proven electoral fraud.


Which sadly the 'brexit' vote did. Entirely in the interests of the wealthy and against the interests of the ordinary people, who would lose the Working Time Directive, universal healthcare and a whole raft of consumer protections that the worst of the Tories have consistently fought against.

As said many times before - the Leave campaign leaders have had 3 years to implement their promises - they have not done so and they came up with no detailed proposals to achieve that. Most have resigned many months ago - They know that it is easier to moan about things then to do the physical work involved in actually changing them

So they now have to exit the stage and let the adults bring this to a conclusion.

Do you really believe to be so? I highly doubt it.

are you suggesting ballot tampering?

Illegal funding. Not suggested. Found guilty and already fined.

It looks like there'll be even more prosecutions over this, including Johnson.

have parliamentary elections ever been put aside because of illegal funding? (please don't say there have been no issues... that would just mean no one was looking)

The fat lady is exercising her vocal cords ready to sing, but parliament has to be seen to prevaricate on the obvious and go through the motions, all in the cause of "democracy" - but really Iron, don't you think the political will for Brexit has gone?

It must be age, but I sense these things. Wouldn't necessarily put my house on it though, as the Tories are literally mad and seem to be obsessed by their gormless belief as to what the "Great" in "Great Britain" actually refers to. Democracy demands action for the millions left in personal limbo by this deadlock, and usually when there is such a political situation the status quo is upheld.

As Dilbert says, "Avoid criticism - do nothing." Sensible animal, and a great axiom.

Yes but this moronic question of Camerons' was far bigger than any parliamentary election. This is a British persons' life for the next 40 years. And it affects millions of Europeans too. Do you really think it's right in this age that someone (Polish) has to complete a 82 page form to extend UK stay over three months? Is that fair treatment.? I don't think that can be allowed to stand in any shape or form.

Even in communism the Uk didn't have such **** for spouses of British nationals, so why start now? Because the Tories think they can copy that cretin that you voted into office? Not in my name.

It wasn't a parliamentary election. It was a non-binding referendum.

It seems to me that the Brexit referendum revealed the limits of democracy. You can only have a democratic debate and eventually a decision, when both side agree to adhere to some basic principles needed for any debate to function. That includes having the same ressources, and arguing in good faith. Which the Leave Campaign both broke.

This is not even funny anymore. Basically every argument Leave made to alleviate reservations against Brexit ("Easiest trade deal in history" "BMW and Volkswagen will urge Merkel to force the EU to make concessions" "The Irish border is no problem") has been proven false, in addition to the promises (Money for the NHS, Trump will come to our rescue et al.). If you rewatch basically any lengthy discussion with Nigel Farage before the referendum, you will see how many false predictions and promises he makes. Many of which his critics pointed out even then, but were dismissed as "Project Fear". This was a deeply dishonest conduct and naturally this also taints the result of referendum.