Brexit 2019 and Poland

He he - Boris could call a town hakl meeting in West Belfast and run that idea by them - would be more aggro than a bit of plate smashing !

This seems to be a sensible alternative. Or, alternatively, why not declare Northern Ireland an independent state within the Republic of Ireland's customs territory? Such was the solution applied to the Free City of Danzig between 1920 and 1939 when Gdańsk (Danzig) was adjoined to the customs zone of Poland.

just a tiny bit off topic and just for Atch... the American far left/socialist/populist American podcast group "Chapo Trap House" just finished a European tour ending in Dublin

soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/324-live-from-dublin-irish-valor-61719

I don't know if they have an Irish following or if those are mostly American expats in the audience....

That is quite sensible but at the moment has one fatal flaw - the govt has a tiny majority and is propped uo by a Northern Ireland party who are fanatically devoted to remaining part of the UK

Why comment on something you are obviously ignorant of?
A hard border means a return to sectarian violence. And how would that affect you?
Do please engage your (learned) brain. Otherwise shut the fukk up.
This question is for wiser people than you methinks.

why would a hard border between Ulster and the UK cause sectarian violence?

how and why should the UK be held hostage by a bunch of uncivilized yahoos in N Ireland?

I could try and answer that Maf, but I am English,and part of the problem. Atch would tell you - but.. from an ignorant English view...

The Good Friday agreement stipulated that there woul;d be no border between the two states ( feedom of movement and trade - as throughout the EU).

So the Troubles halted and the paramilitaries surrended their weapons.
It is not a question of "uncivilized yahoos" and your ignorance is shocking if not pathetic.
This is not the place to describe the horror of The Troubles. And you, as a Yank, are part of the problem, sorry to say. Until your ilk are educated to stay out of the biased debate, as we, the liberal English, have learnt to do, you will be part of the problem.

People would have to cross a border, show a passport and be subject to customs checks just to get to a country that they are already citizens of. If you are under 30 then they will not remember the times when there is a hard border and it will be a huge shock. If they are older they will remember the violence.

No, you're not. You're an individual and in no way responsible for the actions of successive British governments. There are certainly some English people who don't see Ireland as a country, but as a wayward province, but you're not one of them :))

For anybody who has the patience to read it, this is an excellent article which explains the complexities of the border situation. Just the opening few paragraphs is enough for a reader to grasp the insurmountable problems of the border and why Brexit can never work:

"The idea of the UK inflicting levels of surveillance on a border community against their will, and expecting people to comply, not just on the northern side but also on the southern side? It's not going to happen."

When the The Alternative Arrangements Commission (ACC) visited Ireland as recently as two weeks ago, Conal McFeely, a Derry community leader and peace activist explained to the group that if illegal cigarettes were to be checked by customs officials in a Creggan shop, then a tactical police unit would be required to get them in.

To quote Stephen Kelly, chief executive of Manufacuring Northern Ireland, "This isn't a normal community or society, Derry isn't Derby."

rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0622/1056832-tony-connelly-brexit-blog/

An excellent report for the layman. Thanks Atch.
The bit that is telling is when Connelly explains the possible 63 checks that have to be carried out on goods transhipped between the EU and a 3rd country, Ireland in this case.

Thiese checks would need to be UK wide, to remove bottle necks or a "hard border" and would instead hinder the theory of free-trade. Apparently a British governmnet commisiion is breaking their balls, looking for the unicorns in "Alternative arrangements" to avoid the Backstop. It would be hilariously silly if it weren't so serious, the Tories playing their usual political games of kick the can. I'm busy reading the blog through, and would urge Mafeketis and the rest to do the same, before they comment further on the problem. Great link Atch!

Summary: So Maf and other Trumpites don't have to read the above: because they wouldn't anyway, preferring to spout ignorance of the facts...

The Alternative arrangements commission, who sent a 4 man/woman brainstorming team to the border to see the situation on the ground (no unicorns sighted), are today publishing their report on how technological advances and checkpoints up to 15 km from the border can avoid a hard border (although there will be slow traffic at the border itself as lorry drivers have to scan a roadside device - interesting to see how that would work!)

Apparently the next Prime Minister will use this report as a flag waving exercise in Brussels to get theEU to reconsider the Withdrawal agreement.
Good luck with that boys (and girls!)

It's pretty obvious that all of this research etc should have been conducted BEFORE the referendum. The ensuing mess stems from that unfortunate attitude I referred to earlier of the British administration tending to see the whole of Ireland as a province of the UK. In a strange way the EU compounded that as we were both operating under the same umbrella.

The British attitudes are basically either a casual oversight of the fact that we're a separate country or the deliberate, bullish insistence that "Belfast is as British as Finchley" - but it isn't and that's why the UK is now in this complete mess.

@Doug, glad you enjoyed the article. There's loads more good stuff there in RTE's Brexit section. Note the depth of analysis compared to the BBC which is dumbed down beyond belief these days :(

Hey Genius, when are you going to stop your condescending remarks towards me?

I refer you to your post 1082. When you actually do some research and show a vague understanding of what you are posting about as to the Irish question (for example), then I will pay you some respect.

Until then, on what is an vitally important question to Brits and Irish alike, and Europeans everywhere, if you have nothing sensible to add, then please don't bother.

In this post #1082 you are referring to, I fully supported an opinion of Maf who said:



Then you quoted my opinion from post #1082 in your post #1085 and next proceeded to utter condescending remarks like: 'your (learned) brain', 'shut the fukk up', this question is for wiser people than you', towards me.

This question is: why do you think I am not allowed to support Maf's opinion advocating "instituting the hard border between Ulster and the rest of the UK" ?

The "shut the fukk up" was not directed at you. It was for the usual group of PolAms who were polluting a thread on British and EU matters.

Please feel free to join in, only Mafeketis should try asking the Irish they make of his suggestion.
Their response would be very short, to the point, and would cause offence.
You are apparently one of the better educated bods on the forum, so I was surprised. NI has nothing to do with Danzig, which was a German city, forced into a situation which has nothing in common with that in Belfast

We should await Atch, the forum expert on all things Irish for her view of Mafs' totally frivolous idea.

Now, you limeys know who we feel:)


Oh such language! Are you that upset that BOJO is going to win?

Maybe you should stay in the EU and continue with your German masters? They really call the shots in the crumbling EU. This is probably your last chance to get it right. You already voted for it once and then made a laughing stock out of your democracy. Whats the point in voting for something when you fools won't except the results?

I got my popcorn out and cant wait for the results and subsequent meltdown:)

Wait, I stand corrected. You are not a democracy!

England has an unelected Royal family of parasites that have the right to dissolve a parliament. Dont listen to idiots who say they wouldnt.....they have the right. Also we have an unelected house of Lords that can overthrow anything the elected government passes so is also undemocratic. These same Royalist idiots will dissagree....but they would....wouldnt they. The UK is the most UNDEMOCRATIC country in the west.

good to know!

Joker - there is going to be no "NO Deal". Business here will not allow it and Boris will be blown out of the water in a vote of no confidence if he tries it. General Election time, and he ain't gonna win that, for the majority of Brits think he's a dangerous buffoon.

We Brits might be dumb, but we're not as daft as you Americans with your pres, and are more easily offended. We wont tolerate a clown for long. Boris is offensive. So, I will be glad if he wins, because his tenure will be short and the Tories will be dealt a severe blow.

Can't wait:)

The Queen no longer has the right to dissolve parliament - since the 2011 fixed term parliament act.

Whatever Brexit the country ends up with it, it will have to go through parliament. No deal does not have a parliamentary majority (and neither will Boris).

Well, my view is that he's being deliberately silly, so, as is often the case with harmless silliness, we shall just ignore it. If it persists, I'll have to send a note home to the parents and request a meeting :D

Actually I was serious, or the post Brexit government could just ignore the supposed 'hard' border beyond random spot checks and leave it up to ireland to enforce border security should it so choose.

I continue to fail to understand why it's such a big deal and why a group of supposedly competent adults can't come to a reasonable solution...

So here's the problem

Britain wants control of its immigration
It does not want to have the same product standards as the rest of the single market
Britain does not want to be part of the customs union so tariffs will be imposed both ways (or a deal to be arranged that will take many years)

Northern Irish citizens are automatically Irish citizens thus automatically EU citizens
The EU is a guarantor of the Good Friday agreement and also cannot treat Ireland differently from the other 27 countries

You are a competent adult, get cracking and let us know what you come up with !

Ireland might seem a small problem but it has lots of nuances and psychological / symbolic effects on Uk politics, it's a bit like the Civil War in the US - it finished 150 years ago but it's legacy us still very deep in US politics.

And where are those checks supposed to take place?


Why should Ireland clean up the mess started by the UK?

At roads, airports etc. Plus border facilities should be set up.


Because Ireland is so much wiser than the UK.

If you're genuinely confused, then all I can say is that it's been explained a few times by a few people throughout the course of this thread and if you still can't understand it, you'd need to read the history of the partition of Ireland, theTroubles and the Good Friday Agreement. If you don't want to spend a couple of hours doing that, then there's no point in taking part in the discussion.


What roads, where??


Where?
What facilities?

Sorry, but the Irish will never again tolerate any "border facilities" and will simply tear them down. There is no border as far as the average Irishman is concerned (unless he's an overeating DUP councillor....)

That's what the Good Friday agreement stated, as you know. No border. That agreement lead to the peace that Ireland has today. If we let the Neo-Cons implement the policies that they suggest (similar) to yours, then we will be back to square one.

Not that the Tories care, in their glass houses.

You mean this government does. I don't see the problem. Savid Javid seems to think that immigration should only be allowed on skills alone, but times have changed. The Tories still seem to be under the illusion that British born youth are going to clamour for available jobs at the minimum wage. They're not, hence the need for immigration driving GDP.

But that doesn't win votes. It's a vote winner with the brain dead spoilt brats of this world. Some people would rather be poorer than have an Asian or a Slovakian family living next door to them.

So... another reason to have a hard border between N Ireland and the rest of the UK... first step to rid the UK of the noxious Ulster protestants, make them Ireland's prolbem.


So you're saying the Irish are violent savages who'll resort to mass violence when they don't get their way

This is all bureaucratic hysteria.... Institute a border between Ulster and the rest of the UK or mostly ignore the Ulster Irish border as long as everyone behaves.


Anywhere and everywhere in Ulster, especially at border points.... at random intervals sort of like ticket inspectors in Poland.

Roads crossing the border between NE and Ulster.


Along the border between NE and Ulster.


So Ireland should leave the EU and continue to keep their open border with the UK. Good luck with that!

No Ireland should not do that - they trusted the British government to sign the Good Friday agreement more than 20 years ago and as an international agreement they can expect that it is respected.

As a Pole how would you feel if Germany suddenly decided that the Odra Nysa line no longer applied just because of some domestic issues?

@ Maf, if you're not deliberately taking the p*ss...................


What is NE??

@Doug, don't mind the pair of them. They're just actin' the maggot as they say in Dublin:))