Brexit 2019 and Poland

You think not because you're ignorant of the history of NI and as you have no intention of educating yourself, the discussion ends here.

@Delph, you'd find this article interesting, a few old hardline Loyalists speculating about the future, Scotland is mentioned :-))

irishtimes.com/news/politics/loyalists-on-brexit-there-will-never-be-a-united-ireland-1.3952819

Surely someone as conversant with the history can make some suggestions on a workable working solution that honors the result of the Brexit referendum. What is it?

(saying there's no solution beyond 'remain' because anything else will lead to violence does not say anything good about any population in Ireland)

In the article you posted they clearly say they will not "return to war" and are talking about a hard border, not the soft one I am advocating.

You have spoken in previous posts about a united Ireland.That is far more likely to bring a return of violence than a soft border in The Irish Sea.


It does, because you are so narrow minded and blinkered in your love of The EU that you are not willing to even contemplate a solution.

Which is what Maf was saying earlier.
The solution will only be found if people are more broad minded than you are and if it is not found it will be The ROI that suffers most.

Meanwhile, in the second home of the Irish - the Democratic speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, has said that a US-UK trade deal has "no chance whatsoever" of passing in Congress, particularly if the Irish border/ Good Friday deal is not respected.

This is really going to be "fun".

What does she know?

Well, whether the conflict starts depends on the Irish, doesn't it? They can restart the old problems or not. I understand all the problems involved but it's not like there are some mysterious powers at work.

Exactly and it is not in the interests of The Irish, north or south of the border, to go back to the bad old days.

But it doesn't mean it won't happen. And it's not in the interests of UK either as it will be blamed on them for braking Good Friday agreement.

It won't happen.
Atch is just scaremongering.

I presume you didn't notice this bit:

"My fear is there are people who didn't live through that, and therefore think they either missed out on something or don't fully understand what really is the impact if we end up returning back literally to a battle and a military one over a constitutional question. While no one wants that, we could very easily be sleepwalking into that," said the prominent loyalist.


It's got nothing to do with loving the EU. It's the fact that both the UK and Ireland signed a legally binding treaty which requires us to keep the border open and neither of us can go back on that. And if it comes down to it, that treaty was created as the result of a referendum in both NI and the Republic, the results of which deserve equal respect as the Brexit referendum.

@Maf "that honors the result of the Brexit referendum. What is it?"[/quote]
It's not up to the Republic of Ireland to suggest solutions regarding UK policy following a UK referendum. The central issue and the problem, is that any solution needs to honour both the Good Friday Agreement and the Brexit referendum.


No, you don't Lenka or you wouldn't make such a foolish statement.

@Doug, not just Nancy Pelosi either.

irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/this-is-not-about-a-return-to-empire-us-congressman-warns-johnson-on-belfast-agreement-1.3972382

@Atch

I thought the discussion was over from your side?

Terrorism expert Prof Richard English, of Queen's University Belfast, said: "The dissident Republicans at present have nowhere near the support base to allow them to challenge Sinn Fein within Republican communities.

"Brexit has deepened nationalist disaffection. It reintroduces the prospect of a harder border in Ireland and threatens to drag Irish nationalists out of the EU on the basis mainly of English votes.

"So many nationalists are now more sympathetic to pursuing a united Ireland than they were before Brexit.
"But most do not favour violence or believe that it will achieve progress. Brexit is not going to restart the Troubles."

Then perhaps you should let them get on with it and see what they come up with....

I like my idea of just ignoring the border (keeping the status quo at ground level pending further developments). What's the problem from the UK side? The Irish side? The EU side? I bet the first two would be okay with that....

So, in the same way, lets just ignore the border between Poland and the Ukraine, shall we? The border would be an EU border, hence the small "problem".

All forgetting that Brexit isn't going to happen anyway - because it would be a very bad idea indeed to leave the European Union.

So they would have to put a border there if they wanted to.ROI,NI and UK don't want one.
Checkmate.
EU lose.

If you really wanted to hear what the Irish nationalists think.... the omens are not good.
news.sky.com/watch-live
Mary Lou McDonald: "Brexit could be catastrophic for peace in Northern Ireland"

Hey, what happened to taking back control?

Probably not, because in the EU (supposedly in the words of Wolfgang Schäuble (according to Giannis Varoufakis)

"Elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy"

British voters will never be allowed to determine economic policy again, you can have a beauty contest to decide which person will implement EU policy. Chomp down on that one!

We do dertermine economic policy. In a General Election.

@Dougpol

Only to a degree.

Please check out The European Communities Act 1972.

I'd say that it's really almost cute that you believe that...

Please name some of the decisions that the UK is not able to implement for itself, because the EU doesn't "allow". The EU told us that we couldn't produce and sell the British sausage, but all of that is negated by opt out clauses.


Are you suggesting that anarchy is the way forward? We elect MPs to do our work for us. In the British parliament they are busy doing it - as in, they are going to stop Boris Johnson from ruining my country.

Are you saying that the people are more important than parliament? Charles the 1st's experience would disabuse you of that idea.

It rhymes with..... EXIT!!!!

And it's not just the EU, a feature of the modern world is that financiers have become the chief architects and arbiters of policy in ways that were unheard of just 10 years ago.... imagine any PM trying to push through economic changes that do not please the City...

The economic collapse in 2008 was one of the largest thefts in human history and not a single person responsible went to jail...

It works the other way round.
EU law overides our law.
That is what is meant by "taking back control".

I will ask you again. In what specific ways does the EU prevent the UK from enacting it's legislation? Because it doesn't.

He also said:

"there is nationalist disaffection with political stagnation - and also there are younger recruits who are not aware of the high costs that political violence can bring."

Which is precisely what the old hardline Loyalists and former terrorists said in the article I linked to earlier. There was never, apart from the very start of the Troubles, any large scale popular support for paramilitaries on either side, yet the violence went on for thirty years.

There can never be a return to any checks at the actual border itself. If checks on goods have to be done, then they'll need to be done away from the immediate vicinity of the border and as for checks on people..............that's a very sticky issue.

Btw I'm continuing to discuss with you because you bothered to read the article I linked to ; therefore despite your limited knowledge, your comments were made on a more informed basis.


In the event of no deal, that's precisely what's expected to happen in the immediate aftermath ie the first few weeks/months. But that can only go on for a very short time.

europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-legal-principles/eu-law-does-european-law-override-national-law.html

I agree completely, which is why I said to put the border in The Irish Sea.
The border between NI and ROI can remain as it is.No checks on people or goods.
All it requires is a little bit of goodwill from all parties and this can be made to work.

The EU motto: If it works and doesn't bother anybody create a thousand petty bureaucratic rules and regulate it until it is a problem.

If the UK doesn't care about people crossing the UK-Irish border (as long as Ireland doesn't do anything daft like join Schengen) then why should the EU care?

Because maybe EU doesn't want people entering EU as they please? Is it so hard to get? Any external border has to be checked. Otherwise we can erase them all.

Never took you for promoter of world without borders

A. You'd never guess that from EU policy

B. The UK already has border controls

C. If that's the case, then it's an Irish/EU problem and not a UK problem. No one's stopping Ireland from setting up border controls to halt the hordes of Welsh retirees or Scottish plumbers from rolling over the republic...

D. If people entering Ireland from the UK becomes a problem then maybe look at it then...