Brexit 2019 and Poland

You could ask as well how necessary for the uk are 900 000 or so unionist with all the troubles and monies that NI cost them. Anyway your approach is still off, it isn't about one or other country it is about 46% or so of the population in the NI who wouldn't be a happy campers if there is a border and like 26% of those 46% is ready to kick down the table and start shooting.

Unionists are the worst, totally useless, they add nothing and demand everything.... if I were made King my first order would be to kick them out. Ireland could have them if they want or they can try to go it alone (but would _not_ let them immigrate to the UK).

There doesn't have to be a border, as explained in a link to post #1963

Crikey, no. Just trading the pound while waiting to complete on my house, after which I'll be eating bread and water.
I never had the mathematical brain for analysing trends. Most of us leave that to that grubby Epstein and his ilk.

That link leads to Graham Gudgin's suggestion that GPS tracking devices can be used to monitor trucks. That is not a solution to the border issue as firstly it relates only to certain kinds of commercial vehicles and doesn't work for every vehicle that crosses the border. What about very small businesses and private citizens? That leads on to the controversial concept of the citizens of Ireland being monitored via tracking devices on their own island by a foreign government. To Irish people that smacks of surveillance and no Irish government would agree to it. Never mind what you read in articles by so called 'experts', I'm telling you the reality of how Irish people think.

There's no border issue except for people who want to scuttle the entire Brexit project. No solution will ever satisfy them because they do not want a solution to be acceptable. They want to sit back and shoot down every reasonable proposal because..... (not finding any good reasons here....)

What about Gudgin's suggestion that Irish police already do border checks (or never stopped doing them)?

I refuse to believe that you're as thick as you appear to be. I already discussed that issue of the Irish police doing border checks when you raised it a couple of weeks ago and you either didn't read it or read it and didn't take it in because you're not genuinely interested in this topic. You're just trolling for your own amusement. Irish police carrying out legitimate immigration checks, designed to protect Ireland, on Irish soil is a completely different matter.

As for your continued insistence that there is no border issue, I'm Irish and I'm telling you that there is. Our history shows that very clearly. Two civil wars in Ireland as a result of that border - if you can't understand, I'm not going to keep explaining it.

Unfortunately Maf does have the misplaced tendency to put himself up as being well read on political matters, and is thus objective in opinion, but has an obvious right-wing bias. So you are not going to educate him about the facts re: the Irish question.

I'm not tremendously interested in Ireland and the exact details, I'm basing my preliminary judgement on general principles.

When someone argues there's a serious problem, refuses to contribute trying to find a solution and simply wants to be able shoot down any proposal*... then reading up on the background details is pointless. They're being a bad faith partner... period. The only question is why.... which is why I'm thinking that maybe there's a backroom deal with the EU to be obstructionist in return for future favors (corporate tax among other things)

*It was the same bargaining position used so brilliantly by the Palestinians under Arafat - say no to everything and wait for them to offer more. How did that work out for the Palestinians again?

Absolutely correct.


And that is the problem.
You are Irish and only some Irish see this non existant problem for their own political agendas..... like a united Ireland.


On target again Maf, but it seems like Varadkar may have seen some sense at last.

Why should Ireland look for the solution? Is it them who wants to get out of EU?

And there was one solution already, UK wated no.

If Ireland doesn't want to help look for a solution then Ireland has no business complaining about the solutions offered...


A terrible, awful, deal that was all the negatives of EU membership with none of the benefits... if that's the best the EU can do then who needs them?

Because a no deal Brexit will adversely effect Ireland more than any other country.
They can't just sit there and say it is a UK problem when they will suffer most if things go wrong.
Fortunately, the Irish seem to have finally woken up to that fact.

So UK can say 'we want to leave', then 'we don't want the deal we negotiated with you' and then still instead of giving their own, workable solution ask others to find the solution for them? Wow, is any of this UK's responsibility at all?


UK doesn't that's why they decided to leave but didn't think how to do it first.

Well the performance of successive UK governments has been very unimpressive (unless the goal is to sabotage brexit which I think it might be)

No, it is for Ireland to sort out their own problems.


The Republic of Ireland wanted independence, they have it now, they are no longer the responsibility of Westminster.
Dublin needs to sort it out.

Then why others should pick up their mess?

And I want to remind you they were voted in by British people. If they are incompetent it's internal UK problem.

I'm sick and tired of that motion that somehow EU owes something to the UK.


But NI is. So deal with it. It was supposed to be no problem to do the necessary border stuff without the border so let's see it.

And may I remind you that UK was a part of the GFA and it's their responsibility to uphold it.

This is really nice blame-shifting. The Irish people of the UL voted against Brexit, it was forced upon them by the English. The English people (except those who did not care anyway) let themselves be fooled by promises of "frictionless" trade et al. Yet now this is supposed to be the Irishs' responsibility?

It is not our mess,
It is Ireland's mess.


There will not be any "border stuff" on the island of Ireland, at least not from The British side.
If a hard border is imposed it will be by the EU.

So how will you do it?

And when I say mess I'm talking about the British staggering incompetence.

@Tacticus
Agreed 100%

We don't want that.

Really?
I am pretty sure you have said on here that is your long term aim.
I cannot understand someone wanting independence from Westminster and yet perfectly happy to obey Brussels.
Makes no sense to me.

What is so strange about it?
Westminster came uninvited, against the people, made people lives hell and after many many years of that they agreed to play ball.
EU accession was agreed by the people, they can go when they want without shedding blood, they are partner equal with other membets and they never actually enslaved them.

Your question itself shows a great deal of arrogance I must say

You could say the same about The IRA and the fight for Irish independence.
They wanted it.
They got it.
This is like the grown up kid that decides to leave home and still comes back begging to daddy to bail him out of trouble.....

Pathetic.

Sorry, are you seriously moaning that after all these bloody fights, when they finally were allowed to get a piece of their country , sorted things a bit they should be burdened by loyalists and all that just because now Brits don't want them?

Not to mention that I'm not sure Westminster would be so happy to let go either. That's why they were so vocal of NI staying out of single market and custom union.

Your English is very good Lenka.
Where did you learn this dislike of Britain?
In England or in Ireland?

It's not a dislike. I actually always liked UK. That's a big reason why I learned English. What I don't like is the fact that in all this they seem to demand everyone to get out of their way to fix their own problems. For Pete's sake after referendum you have:

-your PM resigns
-someone takes over and says there is no need for election because well, she's so cool
-the countries affected by Brexit (Scotland, Wales) are complaining they are not being involved in the process and are not listened to
-your not elected PM suddenly decides that she wants the votes after all and looses Tories majority
- she has to suck up to DUP making already hard situation harder
- her deal fail but who cares, right? Lets try few more times and waste the precious time.
- after that we get lovely Boris who is all over the place, has plans but noone knows any particulars and decides the best option is to suspend the parliament for a long time because who would care

- turned out people cared and we wasted some more time making sure Boris knows it
And here we are not even a month to the date and noone knows what's going to happen. Is that the way a serious country behaves?

And then you come and blame all that on a country that had to fight dearly to be allowed to exists because UK couldn't actually do their job.

@Lenka

The British governments handling of Brexit has been appalling.
Agreed.
But the UK is no longer responsible for Ireland.
Independence was their choice.
Every country has to look after it's own interests first.
If Ireland are finding Brexit a problem, then maybe they should have thought about that before demanding independence.
They need to sort out a deal in their own interests.
The UK is a huge market for Ireland.
Though I believe that their biggest export market is the USA.

But is still responsible for the treaties it signed and for NI. UK did sign the Good Friday Agreement so they have to follow through. Although I do generally think it should be sorted one way or the other (either NI is Irish or British with all the consequences)

If that's what you think is happening I can understand your confusion...

If you assume, as I do, that the leadership of both parties are doing everything they can to stop Brexit (while some pretend to try to support it) then... it all makes perfect sense.

Don't pay attention to what people say, pay attention to what they do.... the entire UK political establishment has been postponing and sabotaging Brexit. I assume that's on purpose.

It's a disgraceful abandonment of democracy, but.... neoliberalism ultimately demands that elections should not affect economic policy.

No sorry, I'm not buying that. That conspiracy doesn't speak to me at all.