After Brexit, Northern Ireland may obtain a special status in the EU

Hitler though often referred to the "Jewish Race", anthropologically and ethnographically false! Jews are Semites who are Caucasians, belonging to the same "race" as Arabs, Cushites, Hamites, Tuaregs, and Berbers. Therefore, to be anti-"Semitic" would mean to be anti-Saudi Arab as well. We all know the Fueher was fairly chummy with the Grand Mufti, a Semite, but scarcely a Jew!!

:-)

Only Dirk would unironically cite Hitler as a source.... he loves his dictators.

Not an acceptable source. You must use reputable sources. The dictionary is the only reputable source for the currently accepted definition of a word and the best dictionary for that is the Oxford.


That's not how it works.

"Membership of an ethnic group is something that is subjectively meaningful to the person concerned, and this is the principal basis for ethnic categorisation in the United Kingdom. So, in ethnic group questions, we are unable to base ethnic identification upon objective, quantifiable information as we would, say, for age or gender. And this means that we should rather ask people which group they see themselves as belonging to."

Basically when you complete the census you choose your ethnic category for yourself. So if I was born in England to a mixed race second generation Jamaican father and a white English mother, I might identify as white British not as black Afro-Caribbean.


It's a myth Lyzko. Most of them were either executed or ransomed and sent back to Spain. A few made it back on their own. But there are no legions of descendants of the Spanish sailors in Ireland :))

@Maf, actually Dirk WAS being ironic! He got his definition from some kid's educational website that does worksheets for phonics amongst other things!!

How is it not a reputable source? It's an educational website that provides information, quizes, lessons etc regarding grammar, chemistry to algebra. It doesnt take a phd to undersyand the difference between ethnicity and nationality. But whatever...

Right I forgot uk is one of those places where you self identify and everyone has to believe you. That's why they're putting bins for tampons in boys bathrooms for those who identify as girls. So accoeding to the census a white brit could 'identify' as an Asian brit and vice versa...

None of the definitions of ethnicity nationality race ancestry change the fact that white brits, or English if we're being specific are a minority in their own capital.

People self-identify in many places and have been doing it for centuries. Even you yourself self-identify. You see yourself as both Polish and American, even though according to your own definition of ethnicity, despite being an American citizen, you're not American, you're Polish.

That's the whole problem, words like ethnicity, nationality and even race can be and are defined differently in different places and times... who made you the arbiter of who's who?

That's why I prefer cultural-self-identification over narrow genetic definitions.


In terms of language and culture he's far more American than Polish.

@Atch

I said i am a polam by nationality thats not a self identity because it's a fact that I have polish and American citizenship. Ethnically/ancestrally polish though as that is my dna, not american.

@mafketis
DNA is the arbitrer of ethnicity. If you have halpogroups from Africa you're certainly not of British ethnicity. That's the problem people use feelings and self idenetity over biology. I can self identify as a Chinese attack helicopter, that doesn't make it true.

Is that official or family folklore? Polish dna is not exactly the purest...

It's from a dna test I took that maps out ancestry and predisposition to diseases and cancers. 100% eastern European. Obviously there's going to be Lithuanian ukranian russian and possibly even german/Austrian mixed with it since the pl borders changed so much as the definition of polish. Many of the poles coming to the us during the partitions were considered Russian even though they were ethnically Polish.

Thanks, Atch!

Apparently Irish historians as well are prone to myths:-)

Will the yellow-vest revolution spread to UK? I have a feeling there will be a 2nd referendum. This wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the EU. Anytime the EU doesn't like the results of a sovereign country's referendum, and increasingly election, they challenge it and undermine it.

thesun.co.uk/news/7962563/westminster-bridge-blocked-pro-brexit-yellow-vest-protesters

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The EU position is that Britain will leave in March - they accepted the exit letter and they are not forcing or even requesting the British to have another referendum.

So they say publicly.... I'm just saying, anything can happen. And I believe legally a 2nd referendum could be held

Of course its a public statement- they have formally accepred that the UK is leaving and that they respect the sovereign decision of the UK

A second referendum can only take place if the UK parliament initiates that process.

The EU knows its strength, and the UK has been outplayed completely.

Quite a great example of negotiation really, as the UK had nothing really to offer and the EU knew it.

(again, worth remembering that negotiations were held by member states as a bloc.)

I still don't see why the uk has to pay 30 something billion to leave. If anything the EU should pay them for all the money they've contributed.

They don't have to pay, but that was part of the deal. Countries like Poland were concerned about the impact of the UK leaving on the EU budget, so they were pushing for a large amount of cash to be paid so that they'd continue to benefit from it.

Morawiecki said today that the deal on offer is the best deal available, so it tells you the Polish position on this.

Yeah but the pl government also pushed for eu to be easier on uk, undoubtedly so poland and the million poles in the uk could benefit, but still..

telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/19/polish-prime-minister-warns-eus-harsh-attitude-theresa-may-could/amp

But on the other hand yes he did say this is the best deal they're gonna get.

Honestly I think that what's going on is that may is out of her league in terms of politics. Political discourse and political processes have traditionally been more genteel and respectful in the UK. Of course there's exceptions but all in all its pretty civilized.

The EU is a different ballgame. Lots of double speak, treachery, backstabbing, playing numerous sides it's a vipers pit. Donald tusk and Juncker even carefully manipulated may just to get a photo with her and some cherries and a cake just so they could post the photo with tag lines about cherry picking and cant have a cake and eat it. And that's just a photo opp, not even a serious debate involving an almost 3 trillion dollar economy leaving a union.

They're simply playing her and I think she's out of her league with political negotiations as its an arena she's not use to. On top of that she has to appease the EU leaders, all the mps back home and the British constituency. I'd go crazy if I were in her shoes. I may talk **** about her but seriously she's one tough woman simply being able to go through all that for as long as she has.

The UK does have to pay that - it is a legal obligation based on treaties they already signed. Neither Remain nor Leave mentioned it during the referendum.

She might be out of her depth but there are not too many candidates who would do better. She offered the main Leave intellect, Gove, the post of negotiating the deal a few weeks ago and he refused so she gave it so some unknown guy. Delivering what Leave promised is an impossible task so they could have Churchill, Thatcher or Lord Wellington negotiating and still get a bad result.

You probably confused EU politics with UK politics here. EU politics have been downright civil compared to UK politics since 2016.

Yup, Poland eased off when they realised that the UK was pushing for an end to EU immigration. The problem was that Poland was caught in a no-win situation - they need to act in the interest of Poles in the UK (hence supporting a liberal immigration policy in both directions), but they also need the money from the UK.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the way that Poland has negotiated here. It's been consistent and they haven't really changed their position since the referendum. The only problem is that what Poland wants (money and freedom of movement) is not what the UK government wants.


She's essentially in a no-win situation. The EU has been negotiating as a single bloc, and the UK's attempt to try and get individual countries to break ranks has failed miserably. You'll notice today that Morawiecki stuck to the "this deal is the only deal and the best deal" line - there was no attempt to say "maybe I can talk to others in the EU", no attempt to say "perhaps we can go back and discuss the size of the divorce bill", nothing.

I still haven't read a single analysis that offers a way out of this. No deal might actually be the best for all, because at least then voters can see the catastrophic damage caused by it.

Not the EC/EP politics...

When brexit passed the talk was to limit migration from EU as british people were getting fed up with all the e europeans coming over in addition to the large 'asian' population they already had and that kept coming. If I were british I'd be pissed too that a guy can work in uk and can get government tax payer funded money to send to his kids back in poland. Poles Romanians Bulgarians etc were raping the benefits system left and right and they caused a lot of fraud Id theft type crime. Nonetheless the more nationalist brits came to see e europeans as the lesser of two evils compared to the muslims especially with the child grooming scandals and terror attacks. Eventually many brits changed their attitude about poles although a lot still feel there's way too many and they're burdening the benefits system. Thousands of poles started leaving feeling uncertainty and in part due to better wages and opportunities in poland compared to years or a decade back, but the majority stayed.

Now though the stance towards e europeans has changed in the government among the more nationalistic figures and suppprters.. They're not looking to kick them out, strip them of their residency or anything like that. In fact may went out of her way to assure poles they had a future in the uk and shouldn't be worried.

Funny though that it was the U.K. and their master across the pond which pushed the hardest to make the former Warsaw Pact countries part of NATO and the EU as soon as possible. Britain, Ireland and Sweden were the only ones in Europe which opened their labor markets to Poles and others after their accession. Now a certain British clientele whinges and whines, because Farage, Johnson and the other idiots that are responsible for BREXIT forgot to tell them that Britain had full control of their borders before the vote already, and that most of the "evil" brown people flooding their country actually came from Commonwealth nations.

That's not entirely true. Poles had been working in Germany way before eu accession and well after. Same with France and holland but to a lesser degree. Britain did not have full control over its borders though. Once eastern Europe entered the EU they were obliged to take anyone that wanted to come. Same as poland would have to take any Italian, Spaniard etc that wants to come and indeed many people from those countries live in poland and work in the corporate sector.

But yes US did push the most for expanding NATO. Establishing bases all around the world has been the us neo-imperialist policy for decades. It is how they threaten unfriendly nations, but then are appalled when those countries seek alliances, establish their own bases abroad, or implement missile defense systems. It's quite hypocritical and a huge waste of taxpayer money. We have hundreds upon hundreds of bases around the world for no other reason than to troll basically. And if there is a war it won't be the us homeland that gets obliterated, it'll the the countries where the us stations forces especially those from the nuclear triad.

Yes, but never in such large numbers as in Britain. They were mostly saisonal workers in farm jobs like harvesting asparagus.


Let me quote from this article:

"Freedom of movement is a specific right for EU passport holders to move around the bloc to take up work in any country. And there are actually limits on it. People can be refused admittance on security grounds. They can also legally be required to leave after three months if they do not have a job or fulfill other conditions such as being able to support themselves financially."

independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-customs-union-and-single-market-freedom-of-movement-immigration-border-control-what-does-it-a7819186.html

I assure you that for many people, the "Eastern Europeans" are still a huge problem. There are places where over 10% of people living there are from the Eastern parts of the EU. No-one gives a toss about Patel running a corner shop, but they do give a toss about Paweł getting drunk outside the corner shop because that's who bothers them most locally.

Don't forget that the "brown Brexit" vote also mattered, which was where a lot of them voted for Brexit because they knew that the UK would be forced into taking people from their countries instead to deal with labour shortages. What happened? India turned round almost instantly and said exactly what their people were saying - "no free trade without immigration".

newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/view-brexitland-boston-town-voted-strongest-leave-eu - this article is worth a read. Perceptions vary according to where people live, but "control over our borders" was one of the key factors for Leave voters. It didn't help when you had news stories about how planes were heading to Poland weekly packed with Polish prisoners, like this one - dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2127447/Con-Air-flying-weekly-Warsaw--50m-send-Polish-criminals-home-face-justice.html

@TheOther

Yes but few of those affected poles. Most poles came to work but once they realized they could get a bunch of benefits they took advantage of the situation, as poles tend to do. Poles have always been opportunists. If someone says hey you can work in uk and get government money for your kid back in bialystok of course they'll act on it. Idk what the exact number is but I believe it's something like 400 pound a month for a kid. That's a huge sum to get added onto your wage in poland.

@delphiandomine
That's because poles come to do their dirt in the uk. Before uk it was germany where poles were stealing luxury cars everyday and bringing them east all the way to russia. They know the sentences are very lenient especially for fraud, theft, running girls, drugs, etc. Plus the enforcement is lax. When you know most cops aren't armed and won't shoot you, you have a big advantage. Plus british people tend to be far more trusting and open than poles. Poles tend to be more weary and automatically assume that a person has bad intentions. British people generally aren't like that. They're very trusting and friendly for the most part. Unfortunately their kidness gets perceived as weakness and that's why they get taken advantage of. All those things combined plus the open eu borders make uk a dream for polish criminals esp those into fraud, not to mention the big amphetamine and meth market which poles specialize in. I mean some old british ladies still fall for the old Nigerian prince emails.

The 50 mil per year cost is nothing though compared to the money uk formally pays to eu and the money lost on people arriving within a year and already drawing benefits including poles sending money back home.

Child benefit is 80 pounds per month - not 400. That is only for the first kid - after that the amount drops. It's enough to make it worthwhile filling in the forms but in itself not enough to persuade someone to move to the UK.

I imagine the UK is losing money on that, but millions not billions.

The UK does not have "labour shortages". UK employers don't want to pay enough to make work more attractive than welfare...