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Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 13



Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #121

First of all, there is no place for hatred in politics

Yes. Hate is never constructive, and never yields any useful results.

Hate is precisely what led Ukraine down its ruinous path.

Zelensky, the guy currently in power - does not hate Russia. He grew up in a Russian speaking city, and as an entertainer produced content that was primarily consumed in Russia. His failing, was more a lack of wisdom.

Poroshenko, also did not hate Russia, even though there were quite a few more reasons with him, to suspect that he may hate Russia. Such as the terrible persecution he unleashed against the Russian Orthodox Church and the program to rename streets and tear down statues. His failing, really, was failing to resist the temptation of flirting with the Ukrainian nationalists that were at that time ascendant.

After all, Poroshenko is also a native Russian speaker, and even a former minister in Yanukovich's cabinet. His favorite threats to Putin were, "I'm going to be the last Ukrainian President that can cite Pushkin and Lermontov from memory."

The real "haters" were the crowd of wild Galician apes that climbed atop the main stage at the Maidan in 2013. Chief among them were Arsenii Yatseniuk (former PM), Oleg Tyagnibok (MP, and head of fascist Svoboda Party), Aleksandr Turchinov (MP, Batkivschina), and Dmitriy Yarosh (Right Sector, a nationalist paramilitary force).

I am fully convinced that it was them that organized the snipers that shot at innocent people, and not Yanukovich who was a common thief and a coward. It is no coincidence, that ten years have gone by, and they still have not come forth with an official explanation of who was shooting at people.

Driven by hate, and lust for power, they ignored the agreement brokered between the EU and Putin, where Yanukovich would leave power by year's end, while a temporary government of national unity was created. Mind you, this was an agreement witnessed by Frank Walter Steinmeier and Radoslaw Sikorsky, among others. If they simply respected that agreement, so much bloodshed could be prevented.

But blinded by hate, and feeling that they were already close to the jackpot, they kept pushing. They got what they wanted, and Yanukovich fled. Russia annexed Crimea.

After Russia annexed Crimea, these clowns started coming up with all sorts of excuses about how they allowed the situation to deteriorate to such a point. Most of it boiled down to - "We never expected the Russians could have done such a thing!" Idiots. What did you expect?

By the time Poroshenko was elected and sworn in, the cake was baked. Poroshenko lived the first years of his presidency in mortal fear of what these nationalists might do, and so submitted to their every whim. By the time he grew a spine, it was too late.

So see, Korvinus, even a brief but fiery explosion of hate by decision-makers, can lead to long and very painful consequences - for all involved.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #122

Hate is precisely what led Ukraine down its ruinous path.

Ukraine is allowed to hate, me thinks....fighting against an invader!

Don't be to hypocritical, Bobko ;)

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #123

Maybe it has something more to do with the current than with the past?

Most likely. People fear war, nuclear holocaust, the end of the world etc., so they transfer their fear into hatred for the perceived source of the threat. Current and real threat. That's understandable.

But this "hatred since childhood" with "partitions and taking of eastern lands" given as a reason is such a galactic nonsense that it needed to be exposed.

Frankly I doubt that there is a true forgiveness or forgetting in the memories of peoples.

Sure there is. It simply takes time. Who hates Sweden these days? Who hates Austria? Or Turkey? Even Germany gets a benefit of the doubt these days ;) The same would be true about Russia if it wasn't for the war in Ukraine.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #124

Who hates Sweden these days?

Counter-question: Who feels threatened by Sweden these days?

Someone hated Austria???? Really? Hard to believe :).....but Turkey is still widely hated, think about the Greeks and Cyprus and the Kurds and whatever....yes, Turkey is strong and likes to threaten others, so...it's still hated!

I'm just saying...in a situation where someone feels threatened, even if it's the old country far away, one can hate very much also from a relatively safe point....and past grievances will be all there again, as if they happened yesterday, it's so practical!

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #125

@Bratwurst Boy

So you agree then, that people only hate that what they fear?

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #126

Poroshenko lived the first years of his presidency in mortal fear of what these nationalists might do, and so submitted to their every whim.

They call Hungary's government far-right, they said the same about PiS, AfD, Le Pen etc. but somehow they fail to notice that the only country in which genuine neo-nazis influence state politics is Ukraine.

Ukraine is allowed to hate, me thinks....fighting against an invader!

It all started way before the invasion, BB. Some business was left unfinished after WW2, and we are all facing consequences of this neglect now.

Someone hated Austria???? Really? Hard to believe :)

Come on - partitions!!!

Greeks and Cyprus

I meant in Poland. We fought many wars against the Turks, they razed our towns and sold our youth as slaves. And nobody hates them today. Time heals all wounds.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #127

So you agree then, that people only hate that what they fear?

..plus all past grievances! And the longer the history the more grievances the bigger the hate!

Right?

Come on - partitions!!!

But....they are so cuddly! :)

Time heals all wounds.

Be honest....won't you remember that past when tomorrow some turkish nutter would threaten Poland?

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #128

But....they are so cuddly! :)

Maybe for you. We don't see their cuddliness. For us the Czechs are cuddly. :)

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #129

....these mean cruel, brutal bastards!

*shakes fist*

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #130

And the longer the history the more grievances the bigger the hate!

There is something... to your theory that most hatreds never go away, but stay under the surface until the right conditions arrive again.

You could see this last year with the Poles and Ukrainians. The first two years of the war it was all "brother this, brother that". Soon as the Poles closed the borders, it immediately switched back to people citing Gogol to each other, where Taras Bulba says to his son Andriy: «Что, сынку, помогли тебе твои ляхи?» (trans: "So son, did your Poles help you?").

the only country in which genuine neo-nazis influence state politics is Ukraine.

Tells you all you need to know. They don't care about Ukraine, whatsoever - instead they are obsessed with Russia. Like Maf here, who reads me wrong lectures on Russian history (better than most Russians), but doesn't know the first thing about Ukraine and doesn't seem interested in learning anything beyond daily casualty reports.

What is happening inside Ukraine is not important. What is important is stopping Russia.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #131

to your theory that most hatreds never go away, but stay under the surface until the right conditions arrive again.

Frankly if I'm right there will never be real peace in Europe....Europeans know each other to well...for much to long....oh all these historical grievances, just waiting to come up again!

Na ja....there is football! Heh:)

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #132

Be honest....won't you remember that past when tomorrow some turkish nutter would threaten Poland?

:D

Certainly not. It might cause an uncontrollable fit of laughter or might prompt me to join some Turkish forum (again! :D), but there would be no hatred whatsoever involved. Our wars with Turkey were too long ago for anyone normal to still harbour any grudges.

mafketis
22 Jul 2024  #133

politics is about ... not driving yourself into the corner with silly things like hatred (

Banderite

*makes the sign of the cross*

Do tell......

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #134

Our wars with Turkey were too long ago for anyone normal to still harbour any grudges.

Maybe there truly is a time-limit....parts of Germany did clash with Austria after all....and now they are only cuddly, even with this past....okay....I agree!

But the end of the Eastern Bloc and the fall of the Soviet Empire is just not long enough....

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #135

Do tell......

This is not hypocrisy. Banderites literally belong in the same category as the Islamic State, the Guadalajara Cartel, or the Khmer Rouge.

There is no love for humanity with them. They are cannibals that feast on human flesh. The doom of Ukraine.

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #136

Do tell...

I don't hate Ukraine, Maf.

I will admit to lack of exceeding love for the current Ukrainian government (for reasons I have already mentioned on numerous occasions) and for this part of Ukrainian society that Bobko so aptly calls "wild Galician apes" but that's it.

Normal Ukrainians are my Slavic brothers (and sisters) and their suffering genuinely breaks my heart.

But the end of the Eastern Bloc and the fall of the Soviet Empire is just not long enough...

Check out my #109 and #111 - I already mentioned that as not being valid reasons for hatred.

mafketis
22 Jul 2024  #137

Banderites

Mostly an invention of russian propaganda..... only the naive fall for it.

their suffering genuinely breaks my heart.

While being friendly with someone who thinks they need to suffer a lot more.....

Does he agree with solovyov? Would he dare say so publicly in russia if he didn't?

I despise everyday russians for being cowards... the zhopniks who supported this are no more built than the majority apolitical blob that shrugs their shoulders and looks down to not draw attention to themselves

x.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1799310818536046806

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #138

I already mentioned that as not being valid reasons for hatred.

Not alone....no....and before Putin invaded Ukraine I doubt anybody truly hated Russians for that (besides truly old people made to suffer in those times)....but now?

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #139

invention of russian propaganda

Is this also Russian propaganda...

polanda.com/off-topic/poland-aid-ukraine-russia-invades-part-88491/36/#msg1982667

... the continuation of OUN and everything associated with it?

solovyov

A riddle to me. Why Russians themselves don't sort this retard out. A mystery.

russians for being cowards

We've already had this discussion, haven't we? It's easy to judge, especially if one never lived under a totalitarian government.

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #140

Mostly an invention of russian propaganda..... only the naive fall for it.

Are you crazy?

I'm serious - you know 10X more about Russia, than you do about Ukraine.

To anyone that was actively paying attention to what was happening in Ukraine in 2013-2015, it appears as nothing short of a miracle that this country has not imploded yet. Only hundreds of billions of Western dollars, was sufficient to give the normal people the upper hand over the nationalists, that would happily bury the country if it didn't conform to their views.

In 2014, Ukrainian nationalists with 5th grade educations, were kicking the door down in the office of the General Prosecutor of Ukraine, and dragging him around by his neck tie. The reason? They wanted him to close the Maidan cases against them. What did he do? He closed those cases.

You had nationalist politicians, getting into a minivan with their ultra underlings, driving to the front line on Donbass and recording videos of torture over Ukrainians with pro-Russian views (this was Oleg Lyashko - head of the Radical Party of Ukraine).

Ukraine is a failed state. Paramilitary organizations keep the government in fear. You want to deny their existence?


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Torq
22 Jul 2024  #141

...but now?

Hmm... human psyche, a complicated thing.

I suppose I can't speak for everyone and their multitudinous grudges and idiosyncrasies, but for a normal person hatred (real, genuine hatred) is definitely not an easy emotion to provoke and takes a valid reason to emerge.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #142

....the english footie fans like to sing the "10 German bombers" song when Germany plays.....so....

That's Europe for you, I guess! :)

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #143

footie fans

Football songs and fans are a topic for an entirely different thread :D

However, as you well know, I no longer follow this sport.

Bratwurst Boy
22 Jul 2024  #144

....well....it's over and GottSeiDank the Spaniards won and I really have to go now! :)

'night all *waves*

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #145

Good night, BB. :)

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #146

not an easy emotion to provoke and takes a valid reason to emerge.

It takes... a lot.

People lose their family members to the war, and don't HATE Russia.

Some guy sits in Poland, with uninterrupted electricity, hot water and gas - and hates Russia a little bit more than totally.

So yes, questions are appropriate.

Torq
22 Jul 2024  #147

hates Russia a little bit more than totally

He doesn't. It's a pose, a silly pretense.

*sighs*

Gotta catch some z's. Good night, Bobi.

Bobko
22 Jul 2024  #148

Good night, Bobi.

Ciao Kania!

Mr Grunwald
23 Jul 2024  #149

Grunnie and Ironside seem to be

Cause both me and Ironside know perfectly well that whatever ilk came from Soviet Union or Russia.

It was 100% enabled by Germany, without German support. Infiltration of Russian society or whatnot, Russias capacity or even moves would been smaller or not even done at all.

So blaming Russia is in the end senseless truly, Germany invaded in 1939. I could go on about earlier dates, but all harm and losses done to Poles and Poland in the east is a result of German actions.

Many Poles politically are not inclined to view it like or try to be forgetful cause of necessity to improve relations with Germany due to economy. Both me and Ironside are not bound to cosy up to any Germans so we can be very frank and honest with (what they prefer anyways) so it's win-win situation

mafketis
23 Jul 2024  #150

2013-2015

the continuation of OUN

So... what kind of electoral success have far right parties had in Ukraine? How many members of OUN are in parliament?

under a totalitarian government.

What's to love about a culture that only seems to be able to exist with a totalitarian government? what other type of government have they ever had? Why is is this a model that should be spread to other countries?


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