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UK Ambassador Confirms Russia being set up by US/UK. 'Poisoning' a fabrication


Velund
23 Mar 2018  #31

Why would we just imagine how hell looks like. Why not have it on Earth ;)

Russians is not so easy and fast to come by... Lithuania and Ukraine loudly asking to be spanked for years, and to date just Ukraine succeeded to get some sort of cautionary note. ;)

I hope next such note to Ukraine will be from Poland, who should figure out how good their former eastern lands was cared after it was got from their hands by commies. But it has to be really delicate work - as Germany can suddenly remember about some juicy piece of land that Poland got as a replacement for banderism-infected lands on east.
Crow
23 Mar 2018  #32

We Slavs needs to establish mechanism. One who promote pro-German and generally western European Nazism gets fast punishment.

As for Ukraine particularly. Poland and Russia should establish peace on entire Ukrainian territory and then organize referendum, to seek out what population really feel ethnic Ukrainian identity. Then, Poland and Russia should help establish Ukrainian ethnic state, with its real borders. Serbia would also want to take part in all this process, for historical reasons and, after all, this process should include as much as possible Slavs. Only Slavs should be allowed to take part in process. Plus, if wants to help, we should allow Pope, Russian and also Ukrainian Patriarchs to take part in the process. All that for historical deal.

Also, Poland should get Lwow as compensation for genocide committed on Poles. Genocide can`t be rewarded. For the rest, regions where population feel Polish, those regions goes to Poland. Those regions with Russian population goes to Russia.

That if we Slavs wants to survive. Simple, no other way. Non-Slavs just to f***-off from this crisis.
Velund
23 Mar 2018  #33

Then, Poland and Russia should help establish Ukrainian ethnic state, with its real borders.

And what to do with regions where "mixed" population will be found? Akcja "Wisła", but on a much greater scale?
SigSauer
23 Mar 2018  #34

Why would Russia, a dictatorship, choose to engage with democratic nations in Europe at all? They can't be trusted as a partner in any meaningful way, their doctrine is strictly maskirovka.
Velund
23 Mar 2018  #35

Why would Russia, a dictatorship, choose to engage with democratic nations in Europe at all?

You writing this just like you are sure that everyone share your opinion about superiority of western form of democracy (electing clowns under tight media control, over and over again, just media owners is the same) over russian form of democracy (that starts from voting as well, but always come to autocracy, one way or another).

I think, Russia would be only stronger as a dictatorship, but it is just a soft autocratic regime with good level of support from entire population.

They can't be trusted as a partner in any meaningful way, their doctrine is strictly maskirovka.

Can you prove this, with something more than dramatic expression on the face ? May and Johnson look not very respectable, after they tried (and failed).
mafketis
24 Mar 2018  #36

everyone share your opinion about superiority of western form of democracy

simple question, which is larger...

a) the number of Russians who move to live in the west?

b) the number of westerners who move to live in Russia?
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #37

And how it is related to this particular question?

Russia is a country with a net positive migration ( +7.81 Net Migration Per 1,000 Inhabitants in a 5 Year Period (2007-2012)). Compare to "super democratic" Lithuania with -56.74 migrants per 1000 inhabitants in a same period. Even Poland was negative before huge inflow of ukrainian workers started (-1.94/1000).

Personally I know three russian families who move to the West in 1990's, and one swedish family who move to Russia. Asked about reasons - all three answers from russians was related to economics. Swedes moved to Russia due to both opening of a "career window" on a position in Moscow office of company and due to lack of comfort living in a country that becoming "too tolerant" for everyone except tax paying swedes. One of russian families (lived in upstate NY) is divorced and the man I keep contact with is returned to Russia sometime around 2012. Asked why - got the strange answer "lived there to work, while normal way is work to live".
mafketis
24 Mar 2018  #38

And how it is related to this particular question?

if western democracy is so terrible it stands to reason people would not want to live there, yet many, many russian speakers do...

Russia is a country with a net positive migration

From caucasian and central asian sh1th0les...
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #39

if western democracy is so terrible it stands to reason people would not want to live there, yet many, many russian speakers do...

While western countries increase their debts to keep living standards on a same level (higher than the same in Russia), we will always have some people that will choose to move. But this will not last forever, especially with all those numerous blacks sitting on a welfare around all western Europe. Just few weeks ago, in a Santa Susanna near Barcelona, I got a feel that I'm in Africa again. ;)

From caucasian and central asian sh1th0les...

What is a name of a shithole on Caucasus? Be precise, please.

Concerning central asia - yes. I'll agree completely. Soviet administration and professionals that was sent there after completing university courses (a sort of obligation to work few years in a appointed place after a free education) keeped them in a decent condition during USSR times, but once "national leaders" come to power, and russians started to return back to Russia, everything started to fall.

nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-the-worlds-second-largest-immigration-haven-11053

Article looks quite balanced...
jon357
24 Mar 2018  #40

nationalinterest.org

Oh dear...

b) the number of westerners who move to live in Russia?

People wanting to move to Russia must be either truly desperate or from one of the former Soviet republics and `probably Russian or Russified anyway.

russian .... democracy

Those two words don't belong in the same sentence.

Good that Europe is coherent about the danger Russia presents and are united in our response.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #41

Those two words don't belong in the same sentence.

As always, conclusion with dramatic face, without any supporting reasons. ;)

Good that Europe is coherent about the danger Russia presents and are united in our response.

In fact, Europe cannot solve internal problems, that is much smaller, compared to possible danger from Russia. ;) Poles living in Poland know that very good.
jon357
24 Mar 2018  #42

without any supporting reasons.

Unlike the exceptionally strong supporting reasons that pin the chemical weapon attack on Putain.
SigSauer
24 Mar 2018  #43

@Velund

Uhhhh....ok, I'll bite.

I can just pick a few tid bids of info from my time spent in Ukraine.

A protest was organized in Odessa. A young lady was arrested with a handgun in her possession. She was an agent of the Russian FSB, and had reported back to her handlers in Rostov-On-Don (Rostov-na-donu) that she had shot several people and one police officer. Her only goal was to cause chaos and give the impression that the security forces were shooting protesters(they were not), and shooting police officers in an attempt to bait them into actually shooting protesters. How do I know this? From reading the transcripts of her phone conversation back to her handlers in Rostov, not too bright. This genius of espionage also had a Vkontakte page with pictures of her training in the Urals, in an RF Army uniform.

When MH17 was shot down, again I'll point to transcripts of intercepted communications between Bezler (nom de guerre 'Bez') and Igor Strelkin (nom de guerre 'Strelkov', or 'Shooter' in English). Bez thought he had ordered the shoot down of a UA Army Antonov transport plane, and was pretty taken aback when bodies started landing in peoples living rooms in the city of Torez. Igor Strelkin is an admitted agent of the Russian GRU (sabotage&reconnaissance groups). Strelkov also sent out a tweet that said, and I'm paraphrasing, "We told them not to fly over our skies," something to that effect. The weapon used was an SA-11 BUK launcher, that can be traced to a specific Russian military base. Metallurgy and chemical analysis done on the fragments recovered from the plane confirm this. What was Russia's response? Typical maskirovka soviet era bullshit. Their strategy is to advance SEVERAL competing theories, all equally ridiculous. First they alleged a Ukrainian SU-25 shot down the plane with an air-to-air missile, despite this aircraft being exclusively used for ground attack and having a service ceiling of 25,000 ft. Next, Strelkov advanced his own theory, which is truly laughable, that the plane was in fact MH370 because the bodies appeared to be 'frozen.' After that, the Russian's decided to release 'satellite imagery' of a fighter launching a missile at a jet-liner, except that the silhouette of the fighter was not an SU-25, and the silhouette of the jet-liner didn't match that of MH17, and the terrain beneath didn't match the terrain of the impact site. This is absurd behavior, not the behavior of a 1st world nation that belongs at the table with other responsible nations. It's not even an obfuscation of the truth, its blatant lies and behavior more akin to criminal gangs than nation-states.

I could go on for days and cite instances of weapons being used in the Eastern theater which have never been exported from Russia, of vehicles being captured with log books indicating the base they came from in Russia. I could cite the attack on both Kramatorsk and Mariupol which targeted civilian apartment buildings, where 8 were killed in Kramatorsk (they were aiming at the airfield in Kramatorsk, but were probably too drunk that day to input the asthmus correctly), and 30 civilians being killed in Mariupol, phone intercepts to match with that attack too, when one idiot told his equally retarded commander they were aiming at apartment buildings, he said he didn't care and to attack anyway.

You'll have to excuse me if I give some pause to the trite bullshit you're spouting, when I have first hand experience about the way in which Russia treats its "brothers." My close friend Alex had his apartment destroyed by an Uragan rocket fired from the Donetsk Retards Republic, and my ex had her house destroyed by incoming artillery, and will tell you first hand that Russian soldiers entered her city (Donetsk).

Why would anyone in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania think that Russia would be anything but hostile. Putin's own words, are that small countries do not deserve sovereignty. They are an aggressive, expansionist state. I find that quite ironic given they have the largest country in the world with an economy smaller than New York state. Your immigration statistics are hilarious, two of my co-workers spent years working at the US Embassy in Moscow, the majority of the immigrants are criminals from Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan. They are low skilled and uneducated, and the only reason they're in Russia is because it is slightly less ****** than their own countries, slightly. Outside of Moscow, St.Petersburg, and maybe Voronezh, the country is horribly underdeveloped, has an HIV epidemic to rival the worst African countries, and an addiction to heroin only behind Iran and Afghanistan.

It is hilarious to watch RT, TASS, and Rossiya-24, see the things they're talking about with your own eyes, and watch them publish information that is entirely false, and fabricated. Was I specific enough for you? Or do you require pictures as well.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #44

Unlike the exceptionally strong supporting reasons that pin the chemical weapon attack on Putain.

??

I had much better opinion about PolishForums members. And now one of them starting to lie just like british prime minister. ;)

There still no any material proofs that was make public in MH-17 case, and no official results of investigation after a years. And probably will not be published anytime soon. But some sly lawyers starting to get US court orders to pay a huge compensations to relatives of victims. (Yes, you not have to be guilty to lose in a US court - presence of only one side in a court room is more than enough).

Skripal case is from the same category. No proofs, police doesn't have suspects yet - but politicians already appointed Russia to a position of "bad boy". And they trying to say that they determined poison in minutes and provide correct antidote - but decline presence of samples of the poison itself in their hands.

Is there any new super-secret analysis tech that does not require sample for spectra comparison? I doubt...
But if they had sample - why not imagine that Skripal was poisoned by a part of that sample? And people with correct antidote was ready to act before they die.

But now they cannot follow a mechanism described in OPCW convention - and present a sample to a country that is suspected as place of origin - because there is some specific reaction promoters that used in synthesis to suppress unwanted reactions, and its traces always remains in a resulting mix. It is possible to determine that synthesis used different process and reagents, while resulting agent is the same.
jon357
24 Mar 2018  #45

that was make public

Why would the details of an ongoing investigation against Russian crimes be 'made public' ?

Is there any new super-secret analysis tech

Probably. Most espionage (and this is an espionage issue) is what you disingenuously call 'super-secret'.

The evidence shared among leading democratic governments is enough to satisfy them that Russia is culpable. The Russian response has been laughable.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #46

The weapon used was an SA-11 BUK launcher, that can be traced to a specific Russian military base.

Proofs, please. Not a some anonymous 0.25 mpix videos with a Buk launcher from youtube.

And missile model is very important, because Russia decommissioned older versions of BUK missiles while Ukraine still have them on a their launchers, left from soviet times.

small countries do not deserve sovereignty

Small countries cannot AFFORD sovereignty. It is very expensive thing. Real sovereignty maybe start from level of France, anything that is smaller have to choose their master between superpowers and do what they say.
delphiandomine
24 Mar 2018  #47

Proofs, please.

Bellingcat did a fantastic analysis:

bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

Everyone knows who was responsible for it.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #48

Why would the details of an ongoing investigation against Russian crimes be 'made public' ?

Because you can not declare someone guilty, if investigation is not complete. But politicians do it.
Police is much smarter - they announced that there is no suspects yet in the case.

The evidence shared among leading democratic governments is enough to satisfy them that Russia is culpable.

I have (highly likely) evidence that jon365 ******* their close relative, and just shared this evidence with Crow (privately). I think now you have to disclose details of your sexual activity and be ready to answer any additional questions, or face sanctions.
jon357
24 Mar 2018  #49

Because you can not declare someone guilty, if investigation is not complete

Yes they can, when they're satisfied about the truth. No matter how much Russia hates the truth.

be ready to answer any additional questions

Feel free. In this case, a chemical weapons attack has been made on an independent sovereign state by Russia, and most major democracies in the region are satisfied about Russian guilt on the basis of the evidence that they have collected.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #50

Everyone knows who was responsible for it.

"Everyone know" in reality mean "as media presented it". Bellingcat was caught on a few "loose links" in this investigation, and you can find critical analysis with details on the net.
SigSauer
24 Mar 2018  #51

Small countries cannot AFFORD sovereignty.

The warhead itself was 9N314M-model, and the accompanying missile was 9M38M1. Whether the system is currently in use or not is immaterial, Russia had over 2,000 T-68's in storage that they were happy to put onto trains and pour into Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. There is a F-ing Donetsk Retards Republic recruiting office in Moscow for christ's sake, you are literally harboring terrorists.

Yea, thank you for confirming what I already knew about you Russian parasites, that you're barbarians not fit to sit at the table with civilized nations. Every one of you that dies in Ukraine is a blessing, one less that we have to kill tomorrow.

Russia-Ukraine border

Here is an image of Russian self-propelled artillery firing over the border into Ukraine.

Слава Україні! Героям слава!
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #52

Yes they can

What? Can you repeat this in another words?
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #53

Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Someone lost the Salo?

sit at the table with civilized nations.

Is it the same nation that sent their representative to UN to show unknown white powder in a test tube as a "proof" and then attacked sovereign country, and left it in a complete havoc but was unable to find any bio or chemical weapons?

No, I'd prefer not to sh*t on same field with politicians of such a nation, not to say that it is a very unpleasant work to sit at the same table.
SigSauer
24 Mar 2018  #54

Someone lost the Salo?

That's original, why didn't you go for the Ukrop instead?
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #55

most major democracies in the region are satisfied about Russian guilt on the basis of the evidence that they have collected.

So, secret investigation (secret even from british police) is OK to declare someone as guilty and start activity leading to immediate losses, both monetary and reputational?

OPCW experts told that it will take weeks just to determine exact agent. How british guys done it in a minutes while it was not late to bring antidote from government lab that is located not so close? And usually request concerning such classified matters take much more time just to get approval to disclose any information.

Sad to say, but most likely both father and daughter Skripals is dead, if they really meet with any of substances, that is named as "Novichok" group in the West. If they still alive - then either it was not a military grade agent, either it was a provocation made by british secret services using locally produced sample of poison and antidote was ready to use in seconds once they became necessary.
jon357
24 Mar 2018  #56

So, secret investigation (secret even from british police) is OK

Yes, it has satisfied all relevant parties.

OPCW experts t

Are involved as per international procedure. They are not however judge and jury here.

Russia is certainly guilty of this; there is no credible doubt in this matter, despite the silly conspiracy theories pushed online by Putin apologists.
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #57

Are involved as per international procedure.

As per convention, Britain had to contact country that is suspected as a place of origin of agent (i.e. Russia), and provide samples. Per convention, Russia had 10 days to provide complete information and comments. If it would feel unsatisfactory - then OPCW experts and independent labs should take care of this.

Britain pushed a 24-hour ultimatum instead, and does not provide any material proofs or samples. Just words...
Velund
24 Mar 2018  #58

Feel free

Well, you failed to provide sufficient information about your unlawful sexual activity, and now have to prosecuted for incest. We drink a couple of beers with all relevant parties while discussing your appalling sexual behaviour, and existing evidence is satisfies everyone.
peterweg
24 Mar 2018  #59

Its a mistake to engage with these Russia trolls.

Its our choice on the response to the scum that run Russia. **** them.
jon357
25 Mar 2018  #60

Just words.

Words (unlike Putin's) that Europe evidently trusts.

Its our choice on the response to the scum that run Russia

I'm no fan of Theresa May (I prefer the current opposition party) hgowever she's called it right this time. I especially liked the bit in her statement expelling the Russian spooks pretending to diplomats that alluded to measures she can't talk about:

"While I have set out some of those measures today, Members on all sides will understand that there are some that cannot be shared publicly for reasons of National Security. And, of course, there are other measures we stand ready to deploy at any time, should we face further Russian provocation."

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